Andy Mason (00:00)
Hey, welcome to the conversation. I'm Andy Mason, and you're listening to the Heaven and Business Podcast, where we help you navigate the messy intersection of faith, family, and business. Well, as a business owner, do you ever feel the pressure to sound more polished, more shiny, better, more successful than you really are? That's the tension of marketing. I can play small, act small, hide, and then nobody knows about what I'm doing. Or
How do I not use or manipulate the social media AI persuasion tools? Well, that's what we're talking about today. I sat down with my friend Ray Edwards, who's the author of How to Write Copy That Sells. And actually, the interview was so good, we thought we'd better break it in half. The first half is going to be all around marketing and persuasion. And how do I define that and make sure that I'm not using that to manipulate others?
While also doing with that integrity and excellence. And then secondly, is AI, because all that does is amplify what's already on the inside of you. So the core of this is this: don't reject the tools, don't worship the tools and blindly follow, but allow God to shape the person behind the tools. That's you. So jump on in and enjoy this and look out for next week's copy number two.
Andy Mason (01:25)
Hey, welcome everybody. I'm Andy Mason. I've got a guest with me today. His name's Ray Edwards. We go back over a decade, but what we're going to do is Ray's background and expertise is marketing and copywriting. It's the gift and art of persuasion, getting people to do anything. And so the second part of it is AI. He's really at the forefront of.
Integrating AI as a tool, as an agency, and what I can do to make it better. So you put those two things together. You're asking yourself, how how do I multiply? How do I grow my business? How do I multiply my message, scale my platform, scale my business without losing my soul, without being it becoming manipulative marketing? That's that's what we want to nail right now because whatever is on the inside of you.
Is going to get amplified and multiplied through both marketing and through AI. So stick around and we're going to help you with this and give you a framework so that you know and that those of you that are reluctant or hesitant to engage in either copywriting or AI, it's going to give you a framework of how to move forward with wisdom. And those of you that you will listen to this and you realize, I have sold my soul, I have outsourced.
My message to somebody else, to a machine or to a person, and it's not healthy. This will give you a framework to bring it back into a healthy way so that we multiply our message, we amplify what we call to do and say, and we do it in such a way that it maintains integrity, honesty, truth, and truly helps people. So welcome to the call. Ray Edwards, we met way back in ⁓ early, just before we launched our God with you at work book.
I'm not going to tell that story because I want us just to focus on how we're helping our people. But Ray, you've written a bunch, you've led a bunch. Give us a little bit of a framework about who you are and your credibility as it comes pertains to marketing, copywriting, and then tripping over into AI.
Ray Edwards (03:24)
Yes. Simple. I got into the radio broadcasting business when I was 14 years old. I did that for over 30 years. And then I began writing sales copy, promotional marketing materials for online marketers because I found out that that activity, the writing, something I did in radio and didn't get paid for it. I got paid for other things. He did not pay me to write. But
The the clients at the radio stations loved my writing because I was devoted to getting people to come into their business. And they liked that. When I wrote the ads, people came to pay them money for stuff. And that was a beautiful thing. Then I learned that I could get paid a lot more for it, doing it direct for authors, speakers, coaches online. I did that for I've been doing that since 2000, 2000.
Actually 1996 when I started. And ⁓ I have had the privilege of writing for a lot of well-known people. It's very impressive if you heard their names. maybe, maybe it would turn you off if you heard their names. Tony Robbins, Jack Canfield, Mark Victor Hansen, Dan Miller, Donald Miller. They're not related. just a lot of people that I looked up to and was very I was impressed that I was able to write for them.
And create marketing campaigns for them. And then I started teaching other people how to do that because I was working myself to the bone. I was working like a hundred hours a week. And my coach that I was working with at the time said, Ray, you're gonna kill yourself if you keep doing this. You need to just teach people to do what you do. And I said, I can't do that because then they'll stop paying me to do it. He said, That's the point. So I became a teacher of marketing and copywriting. And then when AI came along,
Andy Mason (04:55)
Hey
Ray Edwards (05:00)
I went nuts. I I loved this whole thing so much. When I was a kid, my first computer was a what we called, it was a TRS 80, Tandy Radio Shack 80, because it had an 8088 processor in it. And it was we also call it the Trash 80, because it was notoriously unreliable. But that's where I encountered my first AI, which was a program called Eliza.
And it was just you typed into the screen and you'd say, hello, Eliza. And she'd say, Hello, what is your name? And I'd say, Ray. And she'd say, Ray, how do you feel about talking to someone named Eliza? And we had this whole conversation. But it was the rudimentary form of AI. And it wasn't really a conversation. Because it's if you got off the track, she'd say weird things to you that were not not weird like in gross, but they were just didn't make any sense. It's like, well, there's no, there's no there there. There's no.
Andy Mason (05:46)
Yeah.
Ray Edwards (05:51)
And so AI now, as we all know, any of us who've interacted with it, it seems like a real person. But it's not. And I love AI for the tool it is, but you gotta use the tool and don't let don't let the tool use you.
Andy Mason (05:59)
Yeah.
It's so good. Bottom line up front for today, don't reject the tools, don't worship the tools, but let God form the person holding the tools. That's you. So let me just so for people that are wondering more about Ray, you can find Ray, rayedwards.com,
Grab a copy of Ray's book, How to Write Copy That Sells. Here it is here, How to Write Copy That Sells. And Permission to Prosper, that's going to help you deal with the mentality of holding and playing small. There's also Clarity Scribe, which is a tool that is your voice and plan and program actually using AI. But let's just dive into this, Ray, for people that are listening, that have felt pressure to sound bigger, better, and more polished.
than they actually are. That's what copywriting and marketing will do. Actually, it'll it's gonna it's gonna take you and enhance you and make you sound may, way better than you are. How do you navigate this? Because this is your skill. You've got the ability to make people sound and act and perform better than they really are in reality. How do you navigate that?
Ray Edwards (07:08)
This is a great question, and it has been the primary struggle of my career as a copywriter and marketer because it is so easy. I'm just gonna say this. It is so easy to manipulate people with language. It's it's so easy that I I went through a period of time I had learned these techniques for manipulating people into buying, and it made my copy incredibly powerful.
And persuasive and I got great results for clients. And I ⁓ I began to feel guilty about it. And I I had to take a long look at what I was doing. I I was learning things like there was a book called Covert Persuasion. And it was all about how conversationally you could influence people to do what you wanted. They do they wouldn't even know what you were doing. They'd have no idea. And I got so good at that stuff, I did it.
automatically. And when I figured out it was a sin, I used the sin word. Yes, it was a sin. It was wrong. I had to discipline myself to stop doing it. And I I would catch myself
writing things or saying things just off the cuff that had been ingrained into my my mind and my heart to say or do to get people to do what I wanted them to do. And it was a really tough battle for me to stop doing it. But I have, with the grace of God and the power of His Holy Spirit, I have removed those tools from my arsenal. I don't use them. I d I do pay attention to all the stuff that's happening in those teaching circles because I want to know
how to avoid what they're doing. And there's always a new wrinkle, or it's a seemingly new wrinkle. Evil is the same from time immemorial. It just takes on a new shape every now and then. But that was that was tough.
Andy Mason (08:44)
So
yeah. So someone listening to this right now and and they're saying, Yeah, so that's why I'm not gonna do marketing and I'm not gonna use AI because I don't want to be a manipulator and I don't want to be used by evil. So I'm just gonna let God do the promotion.
Ray Edwards (08:51)
Mm-hmm.
Well, good luck. ⁓ because I mean God will do that in certain instances. And in other instances, he he I don't know if you've noticed this, he tends to not always do what I want him to do because he's God and I'm not. And I I think what we have to understand is look through the Bible at how business people were promoted into places of high
influence, high authority, and with lots of money. King Solomon, when he's building his temple, called in all these artisans from all over the place. And he found artisans that were filled with the Spirit of God and their renown had gone before them, just like King Solomon's renown went went before him. So much so that people from other nations came from all over the globe to his kingdom to see what is he doing. He's the richest man alive. He's the wisest man alive.
He has the most beautiful palace that's ever been seen on the planet Earth and temple. So what what is what is the story with this guy? So I don't it's not wrong to let people know that you have something that can help them. This is the thing for me. I began to learn some time ago that business is ultimately a spiritual activity. Whether you want it to be or not, you may say to yourself, Well, I'm not going to be religious.
I'm not gonna let my faith get into my business. Too late. It's already there. Because wherever you go, there is your religion, there is your spirituality, there is what you believe. And it's the truth of what you believe. So there's a there's a very wise man who said, Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. So whatever's in you is gonna come out, and your true colors will be known by their by your fruits. So the the key is.
Andy Mason (10:15)
And it
Ray Edwards (10:36)
When you think about the fact that business is a spiritual pursuit, it's spiritual whether you're doing it consciously or not. And it's empowered by one of two agencies: the agency of Satan, the devil, or the agency of God, the Spirit of God. And if it's if you're doing it from the through the Spirit of God, not by your might, not by your power, not by your cleverness, but by the Spirit of God, your business will be focused on helping people.
Andy Mason (10:42)
Yeah.
Ray Edwards (11:02)
solve their problems. And then you get rewarded for it. You get certificates of appreciation, which are called dollars. And there's not a thing in the world wrong with that. And if you're operating out of the enthusiasm of saying, like I do, whenever I encounter a possible new client, I'm like, my gosh, I could help you. I have to rein myself in because I know what could help them so much. And I I have to appear not to be overly eager, but I am very eager to share with them how they can
Change what they're doing, what they're saying, change the words they're using. In fact, the slogan of our company is change your words, change your world. And that's that's biblical. There's a there's a part of the Bible that says the power of the tongue contains life and death. So, and there's there's many more scriptures that tell us that the language we use is important. It it sculps
Andy Mason (11:34)
Yeah.
Ray Edwards (11:49)
The reality we experience, not in the new age kind of way, where it's like if you just practice the secret or whatever that mumbo jumbo is, things will magically fall on your lap. But the way you speak reflects what's in your heart. If what's in your heart is to help people more than that in a more valuable way than the money they're going to exchange with you for doing it, then you're going to be successful in business and you're going to feel good about it.
Andy Mason (12:12)
Really good because
yeah, because I think what you've highlighted is this. Before you ask, how do I get louder? Marketing AI, ask, is what I am saying worth multiplying? Is is my business helping people? ⁓ that is it leading to life. And if you can sincerely say, look in the mirror, look at your systems, your processes, your structure, what you're doing. If it's not, well, just work on it to get it.
Ray Edwards (12:23)
Yes.
Andy Mason (12:39)
To that stage. But if it is, you're sincerely doing something that is helping people, you would be hiding your gift, your talent, your ability without good marketing and the use of tools that will amplify it. And I just love this in the life of Jesus. He he had something that was pure that was helping people to the point of laying his life down. But whenever it was possible, he would stand on a mountain, stand on a boat.
He would very clearly come to me. He was not afraid of marketing. It was pure and authentic and helping people get better and lead to life compared to control, manipulate. And if the core of it is just to make more money, then question yourself. But I can come back to that. Ray, what about the other side? Christian business people that are like they have no hesitation about using every tool possible to amplify. And there's a gap.
between this is why some people react out of error of seeing someone do it wrongly, they do the opposite. They hide their talent, they're gifting. That was me. But what do you do when you've got someone who's a Christian business guy and there's some they're information. Let's say that's all of us. But they're leveraging every tool possible and it's not authentic and is not leading to life or it's just mixed.
Ray Edwards (13:54)
Yeah, nothing grieves me more. Well, there are things that grieve me more. Let me be truthful about that. But one of the things that grieves me the most is seeing Christians who are Christians, who are believers, and who many of them operate ministries or they operate a business and they're very openly Christian about it. They they're like using that as a way to promote their business. and to see the especially the Christian ministry slash businesses.
That are promoting themselves using manipulative covert persuasion techniques and trickery and outright falsehoods in many cases, and doing things that are borderline criminal according to the world. Now, if you're criminal according to the standards of the world today, you're pretty low down there. And it's ⁓ it's it it hurts me. And so good Christians who when I say good Christians, I mean Christians who love the Lord Jesus Christ.
Who believe that he died for their sins, who desperately want to get that message out to the world, the people who are hosting the presence of the very living God inside their body, inside their business, those folks get scared of doing any kind of marketing or what they think is of a self-promotion. So I would offer you this model that we use. It's called value-first marketing. So you're marketing by giving.
value ahead of asking for any kind of purchase or thinking about getting them to buy something. So you give value first. And the most incredibly effective way of convincing people you can help them is by actually helping them.
Andy Mason (15:23)
Yeah it's actually
Ray Edwards (15:24)
And then when the time
comes and they need more help, they're gonna call you. You don't have to hunt them down and give them a sales pitch with tricky closing techniques and all that stuff. Let other people do that. You are better than that.
Andy Mason (15:36)
Yeah.
Yeah. So good. I mean, highlighting this, asking these questions. Is it true? Is it helpful? Is it clear? Is it loving? Is it obedient? if if you're struggling with this, if you're overusing it, ask these questions because you will give an account before God. I'd rather have that account now. So have people in your life give Ray a call. Say, hey Ray, review this. Ray, if I'm a business person and I don't want to get manipulated.
How do I know? Because there is so much now. I mean, in the Bible talks about this in the last days, there will be false prophets, people that will manipulate, that'll use the tools. And we're talking about AI and marketing in this case to manipulate people. And it says, and many will be deceived. Have you got some wisdom as a one who is gifted in marketing, the gift of persuasion, you can see how it can be used for good or for bad.
As a business owner, Christian business owner, I don't want to be using it for bad, but I don't want to be used. Are there any telltales, any things that I can pay attention to to know when I am being drawn down the wrong path?
Ray Edwards (16:41)
Yes. And you make me think we should develop a resource for people to to be able to use in their discernment. Because that's that's the real answer is use your discernment. And if you don't have if you're if you don't feel like your discernment is very sensitive, then you need to start by working on that. And how do you do that? You spend time in the presence of the Lord, in prayer and awareness of the presence of God in
Andy Mason (16:47)
Discernment.
Ray Edwards (17:06)
dialogue with him, with the Holy Spirit, with Jesus, and you just immerse yourself in scripture and it it's takes time. But that's where I would start. Then while you're doing that, I would encourage you not to go study all the NLP and hypnotic persuasion techniques. And don't go study all that stuff. Even if you're telling yourself, I'm just doing it so I don't get victimized by it or I don't use it on people accidentally. You're not going to use it accidentally, I'll tell you that for sure.
Andy Mason (17:14)
Anchor. Yeah.
Ray Edwards (17:33)
And if you go learn it, you're gonna be tempted to use it. So don't do that. But there are certain patterns of speech that are kind of telltale. Like if you ever hear somebody talking to you during a a web class or something like that or in in an audio podcast, and they're saying things like, you know, you're probably aware of what's going on in the world right now and what's going on with you. And you're probably just as aware of that as you are of the of the air conditioner humming in your office right now.
And as aware as you are of the the sensation of the seat underneath your rear end as you sit down in the chair and listen to me, and you're listening to my voice, that's a hypnotic induction pattern.
So it's I'm not going to do a lot of examples of this kind of stuff because I don't want you to get don't get diverted. You don't need that stuff, and it's evil. I'm telling you, it's it's really evil. It's not just me being a a hysterical rabble rouser. It's true because it can it can and does manipulate people into doing things that the next day they're gonna say, why did I even think about doing that? Yeah, why why do why did I buy that? I spent all that money and so your discernment.
Andy Mason (18:28)
Why did I buy that? Yeah.
Ray Edwards (18:34)
You're you're the tingle you get on the back of your neck or the gut feeling you get that says there's something off about this guy or this this lady. There's something something makes me feel weird about this this copy. And if you don't get those kind of signals regularly, then get your spouse. Guys, I'm talking to you, take your wife with you, let your wife listen to whatever pitch or you're l you're you're hearing from someone or reading on a website or thinking about investing your money in.
Andy Mason (18:43)
Trust them.
Ray Edwards (19:00)
'Cause your wife will tell you and she'll be right and you'll think she's not. And you're wrong and you know it. So honor her, let her let her weigh in. My wife has saved me from so many bad decisions.
Andy Mason (19:10)
Yeah, likewise. So really what you're saying is number one, you know, how do I stop myself from being manipulated by manipulative marketing, knowing that it's going to get more and more and more, and even I'm not sure what I see is true. And someone who knows a script really, really well. It's they are persuasive. Number one, anchor yourself in what is true. That's the word of God. He promises to lead you into all truth. Holy Spirit, guide me. That's number one. Number two, study what is true.
But then also number three, have people around you. So your spouse, business, business colleagues, business partners, business mentors that can help you make those healthy decisions. And I'd say number three, and this is this is works both ways. I'll put it this way if your marketing needs people to be afraid, confused, or pressured in order to respond, something is off. And likewise, if you are feeling afraid, pressured.
You gotta do this now, otherwise you're gonna miss out. Just stop anytime that is used. Do not proceed because that is manipulative marketing, even if they're trying to sell you some Jesus thing.
Ray Edwards (20:11)
Yes.
Yeah. my gosh. Yes, that's so you're so right on on target with that. And I mean, just to just to give you an example of the difference that can be made when you start doing when you start walking with God at work while you're marketing and while you're while you're selling and you're you're listening to God, you're hearing from him, then you can do things like realize that the standard advice of your industry is wrong. Because back when we were selling these high ticket coaching memberships.
at thirty thousand dollars each. The the advice that was given was don't ever let them off the phone or off the zoom call without getting a decision. Make it put a countdown timer on it. Make their make it be a penalty if they have to pay twice as much if they wait till tomorrow. Don't let them walk away. Cause if they tell you I'm gonna think about it, you're lost. You're gonna you're gonna you're gonna be broke. But we started
We I started when I 'cause I was the one who's having all those conversations with people. And I just consciously decided when that got to the point that I told them what the price was and and what the well, first of all, we started telling what the price was before we got on the phone.
Like I'm not gonna trick people into getting into my program. I'm gonna let them know, look, it's thirty thousand dollars. If that's gonna be difficult or a problem, this is not for you. So no hard feelings, just there's other things you can do. And so we get people on the on the call and they would come to the end of the call and they would often say, Well, I need to talk to my wife, my husband. And I would say, Okay, I would do that too if I were in your position.
Andy Mason (21:19)
Yep. Yep.
That's okay. Yeah.
Ray Edwards (21:42)
You want to call me back in a couple of days? Is that enough time for you guys to talk it over? If you have any questions in the meantime, call me.
Andy, our sales went up.
Andy Mason (21:48)
He
Ray Edwards (21:49)
Because
and people would tell me, they they'd call me back in a day or two and they say, we're in and the reason we're in is because you didn't s put pressure on me, didn't give me a false deadline, didn't tell me, didn't tell me it's now or never. You told me I could talk to my wife and pray about it. And I'm I'm like, Well, that's what I would do. So why would I tell you to do anything different?
Andy Mason (21:54)
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I love that. So here's how you know if it's manipulation, if it's subtle persuasion, the cost and the ongoing cost will be hidden. But everything that leads to life, it's up front. Jesus was amazing at this. Okay, lay down your life and follow me. Like it's cost first and then benefit. Everything else, benefit first.
Ray Edwards (22:17)
Yes.
Andy Mason (22:28)
And then finally, when you're overcome by the emotion of what I'm gonna miss out on, then they try and sell you, yeah, it's gonna cost you your firstborn and the rest of your finances. So that's a really, really good. If they are subtle or secretive or unclear about something, that's manipulative marketing. We are stewarding a trust before God and before people.
Ray Edwards (22:36)
Yeah.
Andy Mason (22:49)
Hey, sorry for this quick stop. We've actually broken this podcast interview into two because it's so rich and there's so much content. Part two is taking this further into AI because that does the same. It amplifies what's already in you. But how do you steward before God, steward your conviction and steward your voice in both marketing and AI? Hey, if this is of value to you, make sure you share it with someone.
That would contribute to their well-being as well. And consider joining us in person, coming up in Dallas. We don't want to just make decisions and then have God bless them. We want to engage with God at the start and truly steward what it is to build a partnership with God at work, build excellent business, and then multiply kingdom impact, which I truly say is kingdom service. See those details below.
