Andy Mason | Heaven in Business (00:00)
Hey, what do you do when you're in business? You're building, you're growing and things get thrown at you and competence is not enough. Well, you can't quit where it feels impossible to continue, but it feels impossible to stop. What do you do? Well, I've got an interview done with our friends, Jonathan and Kira Sparks and with Joseph and Brittany Williams.
And you're going to so enjoy this. It's personal. It's gritty. It's vulnerable. It's authentic and it's real. And if you're a Christian business owner, this is going to really help you. More than that, we've got Joseph and Brittany and we're to go deep dive in this same subject at the upcoming conference in Dallas. So watch this. Jump onto heaven and business live dot com. I'll see you in Dallas. And if you haven't done so already, make sure you check out Jonathan and Keira Sparks.
podcast.
speaker-2 (00:55)
So before you guys teamed up together as a power couple, Brittany, how did your professional career start?
speaker-0 (01:01)
So I was on a path to getting my to become a physical therapist. And that switched quickly when I saw a lady walking around the nursing home and I thought, well, what's her job? It looks important. And I wanted that one. So it was nursing home administrator. So I started to go down that path. And from there I've worked in probably every department in long term care from the skilled nursing, memory care to corporate office. And then
took a leap and started Bright Haven Senior Living.
speaker-2 (01:34)
So we get a lot of entrepreneurs come and they go, Man, I want to start something new, but I don't know what. And what's the one reason they usually say they want to start it, right?
speaker-3 (01:41)
It's to but money. You know, and a lot of times we you know, well not a lot of times, it's never about the money. It's about what did God put in your heart? And and on that note, Joe, you know, Brittany told us how she got into the assisted living memory care sector. How did God did God call you to tech? Or was there an innate thing? Or like what drew you to that industry and then how does God flourish you in that industry in your call?
speaker-1 (02:07)
I would say that I'm an atypical tech guy. How I got into tech in the first place was it was money. Senior year of high school, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. And I found that they were speaking about everyone being in student loan debt. So I went to glassdoor.com, looked at industry outlooks, and computer engineer was top on that list. So I said, I'll become an engineer, I won't have student loan debt. That's how I figured it out.
speaker-2 (02:33)
I want to circle back around to we've known you for a few years now. And since we've known you, it's been a hectic pace. There's been expansion, new companies, acquisitions, You were over managing, I think, quite a few employees, right? Overseeing a good sized network. And then you just said, hmm, this is no longer challenging. I I want to go into business. What happened there? How did God call you to
speaker-0 (02:56)
that
I was working for a company that had 31 skilled nursing facilities. We had 2300 team members. At that time I was the head of HR, so overseeing all of human resources. COVID just finished or it was the tail end of COVID. And I feel like everyone took a beating in healthcare. I just got burnt out during that time. And at that time Joe
He needed an operator for the tech company. And really I thought, well, I don't want to do this anymore. I'll take a stab at that. And that lasted all of six months and maybe not even six months. It's a blur.
speaker-2 (03:39)
Brittany, I see behind the scenes, God had been setting you up for years for this, right? Because now that we can see the other side of this, we see what a phenomenal entrepreneur and a business owner you are. How you manage your teams and your staff at multiple locations. Why were you nervous to step in?
speaker-0 (03:55)
For me it was the risk. I was afraid of the risk, the liability if the business failed. It's not just my family, but you know, depending on how large your business is, hundreds of families that are impacted. And I was scared of taking on that responsibility.
speaker-2 (04:12)
So when you say we acquired a business, was it beautiful, running just like they said, and did everything you hoped it would do?
speaker-0 (04:20)
No.
now mind you, we did due diligence because I've been in acquisitions before at the corporate level where we acquired, you know, different facilities all the time. There's just things that no matter how well you think you can be prepared and planned and you have your list, once you get into it, it's it's always something. And in our case it was something after something after something after something.
speaker-2 (04:47)
During the same time, you're an exec at a startup, so everything must have been going great for you.
speaker-1 (04:54)
it was for about two months. It was for about two months. So Brittany signed her contract for this company two days after her C section with our second child.
speaker-0 (05:03)
Now mind you, when you're pregnant for five years, your brain, there's all kinds of hormones and there's mommy brain and pregnancy brain.
speaker-1 (05:11)
Yep, so we took over end of March, April, I was named in a lawsuit. Was running a company, lost my largest contract at the exact same time. Part of that in our in our wisdom was we knew that the company was in disrepair.
we were taking it over for some friends that had moved into full time ministry the contingency for capital that we needed was because my company was generating sufficient cash flow. And so if something happened, we had a backstop. So when I named a lawsuit, I lose my largest contract. I have a payroll at that time of about fifty thousand a month. Her payroll ended up growing to thirty, thirty-five. So all that happened in a in a split.
speaker-2 (05:53)
I've got a question for you. God, God knew this was coming. He didn't warn you. He gave you the green light to go ahead and buy this company. He gave you the green light to go ahead and partner and work with this group. Why did he do that? Knowing that there would be opposition, resistance, or maybe even failure in certain areas. Why did he green light? I think this is so many people. We were just talking about this. So many people come to the well, I tried this and I failed. But this is what I want to iterate. When we meet couples like this that are doing extraordinary things.
It isn't that they've never failed. It's that they failed multiple times, but they just didn't stop. How did you know to keep going?
speaker-1 (06:29)
believe God took us through that because there are only there are things you learn in relationship and and about God's character and develop within yourself that can only be learned through suffering. And so it's
speaker-2 (06:42)
That's not popular to preach.
speaker-1 (06:44)
not but the Bible says that Jesus learned obedience through the things that he suffered, right? and we know that suffering produces perseverance. So there are there are things that you only that you can only get through suffering.
And up until that point, we have had a grace on our lives such that however hard things were, God had given us the ability to think our way through it. We had favor with promotions and influence and people. And when you talk about persevering in this moment, we always say we would write a book. What would you do if you can't quit? It's not that we said, you know what, we're gonna power through. Yeah. I looked for ways to get out of it. I I sure did. And at a certain point I submitted myself to God and said, Okay, there's something you want to do here.
And we're submitted to the process, whatever it looks like.
speaker-3 (07:29)
So how did you do that? You know, people are like, okay, that sounds great. Submit to the Lord. What did that look like practically for you you guys together?
speaker-1 (07:37)
Well, I will take you through a quick journey with me. As it when it started for me, my wife had always said she had known me to do hard things. I could decide to do a marathon at the last minute train for four weeks and go run twenty six twenty six miles. I'd always face things. I'd always face things head on. A conflict has never scared me. I don't like conflict. I'm just I just know what You don't run from Yeah, I don't I don't run from it. There there are things that happen when you avoid issues.
And so this was something that both literally and figuratively brought me to my knees. I was in a position where I was named in a lawsuit by a company that six months prior was in tears at a Christmas party saying that the company would be bankrupt had God not sent me there. Only to find out six months later that I hadn't done anything that I said I would do and I had done all these things. it was very traumatic for me. And the biggest thing was in that moment I had
non-believers standing up on the side of what I felt like was unrighteousness, saying all these things that were untrue. And I was looking to those who said that they believe what I believe to just stand up and say the truth. But for fear of the same kind of retaliation, not many of those people stood up. So I was wrestling with an identity crisis, not really not realizing before that time that I had placed my self-worth and and my relationship in God with what He had done for me and through me.
And the things I had been able to achieve. And secondly, that I came to the realization that I didn't actually trust him. I had trusted in the gifts that he had given me, the resources, the backstops. And when I had reached the end of myself, I realized that it was it was a very hard thing to actually believe that he still loved me and that he was gonna have my back and that it didn't look the way that I it had in the past. There was a progression of that relationship.
speaker-2 (09:27)
So Brittany, while he's going through this metamorphosis, I'm sure he was the most pleasant individual.
speaker-0 (09:33)
No, why
speaker-1 (09:35)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (09:37)
you know, I feel like we've always been so unique in our relationship and that we genuinely like each other, not just love each other, but like each other and always want to be around each other. You probably know where this is going. During this time, there were I didn't like him. I didn't like him. I mean, and it was like you said, it was very unfamiliar to me to see him doing things
Like he does the hard things. He does the things that most people can't tackle. He figures it out. And like he also said, we were always just had so much favor. Both of us knew it was favor and we knew it was God. I d I don't think either one of us felt like this was our own talent that was doing these things because we would get just promotions at the same time and we would get opportunities where
They would say, I don't know why I'm gonna hire you, but I'm gonna hire you. You don't have the skill set for this. You don't have this degree, you don't have the certification, but I'm gonna bring you on board. That happened so many times. And every time we would go into someone's company and it would, you know, explode in their department, or we would get, you know, just so much favor. So when this happened, I thought of this is not gonna last that long because
The Lord is going to show up and He's gonna do what He does. He's gonna, you know, it's I mean, w it's gonna be victory and we're gonna come out of this. And then after the first few months and then by the end of the year it's like, Well, Lord, hello. When are you coming to do the thing?
speaker-2 (11:17)
You know, I wish God would have told us sooner that He doesn't care about our year. I mean, I think business people, we all kind of measure everything in our fiscal year. And like, think about it. We always like, it was a good year. Yeah. It was a bad year. And one of the primary indicators is did we make money? Yeah. Did we build team? Did we increase our revenue? Yeah. God doesn't measure our success in our fiscal year. He measures it in a lifetime. So he's totally okay, I've learned, yeah. To come in, mess up your backstops, your program, and your plan for that year.
speaker-0 (11:51)
It was tough. It was it was literally the hardest time for us just relationship wise. Mind you, this is going on and we are having our third child. So not only are we our relationship is being impacted just from being a new mom and now having a growing family and then you have the lawsuit and then you have the startup business and
At some time at some points I felt like I needed someone to blame. I didn't want to blame God. So Joe was the next best person.
speaker-3 (12:28)
So he was available. So there you go.
speaker-0 (12:31)
So there were times I would blame him because not that it was something that he did to ignite it or start it, but someone had to be the the release of the stress that was happening. And at times I felt like I was his punching bag. And at times he was my punching bag. So
speaker-2 (12:58)
Joe, I remember at one point you and I were having lunch and you were talking about this lawsuit, and we were we just kind of were praying together. And I think the conclusion we came to sometimes you, you, I, a lot of people, we put so much strategy into you had gamed out in your mind every possible way this lawsuit could go. And in that moment we were discussing it, and then we just said, Hey, what about the Holy Spirit wanted to do something different? Yeah. What about if we just gave it to him because it's his money?
It's his concern if he wants to repay you, because you were owed a lot of money at the time, a a large chunk of of money. And what I was really impressed with when I was kind of first getting to know you was you were willing to walk away from what would be a lifetime chunk of money for a lot of people, if that's what the Lord wanted you to do. And I said, here's the kind of person I want to align myself with. So when we're looking for people to do business with, ministry with life with, and now we we're we've done some business together, we're doing some fun stuff together.
We're looking for people that haven't always won. We're looking for people who know how to lose with honor. And, you know, Karen, I said this before, you know, everybody always thinks that a good negotiation business is a win-win. But what about the Holy Spirit wants you to take a loss? So better than a win-win would be his will be done. So I remember when we were sitting there.
Brazilian Steakhouse. Thank you, Jesus, for Brazilian Steakhouse. We were sitting there and you you prayed that and we were talking through that. Tell me a little bit about that. How did you come to a place where you're okay going, God, take it all? Whatever you want.
speaker-1 (14:36)
Well, it was really through that process, where I started to f reflect on the new relationships and what God was doing in our marriage and just our incoming baby girl, and I realized that that it was good for me that I was afflicted. But I wouldn't have gotten to this place to the end of myself to truly be in that depth of relationship and have the opportunity to trust him if not for him taking me through these things.
Because I had a different the Bible says not to think more of yourself than you ought to. And I had a different estimation of who I was. I thought I was that guy. And I was not. And so my wife had a conversation with me early on. She said, Hey, I've known you to always do the hard thing. I don't even know how to support you. I don't even know how to support you. Like this guy, he's unfamiliar. But ultimately, the truth I had to face in the mirror, shortly before our conversation is
No, I'm this guy. This is this is who I am. When the pressure got on, this is who I've always been, because I've been been dependent on me. And so I realized shortly before that that I couldn't have what God was doing now with those old wineskins. So and I wasn't willing to give up who I was becoming, the people he had put in my life, where we were going and the foundation we would now be able to set for that former glory.
speaker-3 (15:59)
Wow. Now Brittany, the other side of that, like we know where his heart was. Like how how are you during this process? Where was your heart and you you know, you you told him, I don't even know how to support you right now. So what was going on in in your mind and heart of of being the helpmate that God's called us to be as wives? Like, what were you feeling in processing at that time as well?
speaker-0 (16:19)
I was drowning. I was just overwhelmed with building a business and it is something that I've always done naturally as far as being a caregiver. You know, since I started as a CNA, I know how to be a caregiver, but now now I have to lead other people and show them, teach them, but then also I'm
census building the business and putting in the standard operating procedures and this is at since it's a startup, I'm a one woman, you know, show as far as I'm wearing all the hats, I'm doing the admissions, I'm doing all the clinical. I'm doing so I'm doing all the things and
couldn't even show up at home because by the time I'm exhaust I'm exhausted and when I'm here or there I'm just so depleted that when I said I can't support you then I only had enough energy to say I can't support you. And so it's easy for I I've always been someone that could work hard. In college I had three jobs.
So I my caregivers always tease me and say, Do you ever sleep? Like when do you sleep? Like you don't I always see you up, you're answering the phone, you're doing this. And I my reply back to them is no, I haven't slept I I in college. This is I mean, this is just how how I was created. So I had three jobs in college. I didn't sleep then, I don't sleep now. and that was so that even though it sounds hard, it was easy for me coming home and then being a wife.
was difficult. Being a mom was easier in terms of since I've was the oldest sibling and I know how to take care of people. I those skills translate to motherhood and being a mom. But being a wife, that was something that just kept getting put on the back burner and just kept getting on the box put as not a priority because it just I knew that Joe could take care of himself.
And so my plan was I'll pick it back up, you know, at some point once the business was successful, you know, once the kids aren't, you know, once I'm not nursing anymore, once I w they don't they don't they can be a little more self sufficient. And what we realized through therapy and just through tough conversations, because
Joe looked at me when he said, I don't like conflict because I wouldn't know that during that time. Like, why are we always arguing? Like, do you like this? You know? So during those tough tough conversations, he is very good about explaining and saying how he feels, you know, what he needs. And and for me, it just felt like attack. A attack after attack because I'm in the trenches out there and then come home and
It's like I just wanted to disassociate. Like I don't want to check in and do the hard things here. I'm already doing the hard things there.
speaker-2 (19:31)
And that's the difference between being an employee and being an owner. Yep. Right? People don't see the behind the scenes. It never shuts off Yeah. It does
speaker-0 (19:39)
Yeah.
speaker-2 (19:40)
not stop.
speaker-3 (19:41)
So with all of this pressure, you know, startup, lawsuits, what did you learn about yourselves as leaders? and then what did you learn about yourself as a couple?
speaker-1 (19:54)
so I'll go couple first. That that grit don't quit, right? So mostly what we took out of it is that throughout that entire process, we were committed to each other. We couldn't show up in the way that we would have liked. And in retrospect, the way that I would have liked wasn't good for me. but I know that that when I got up in the morning when I laid my head down at night, she had all ten toes down and we were in it together, whether or not
the specific areas I wasn't in what she was in, I had my experience with what I was dealing with. But that at the end of the day I knew that she would be there. And when we when we say those vows, you don't know when the sickness comes, when the pressure hits, if if they will actually be there. And I know that that she has my back.
speaker-2 (20:42)
We also now know that Joe is harder to take care of than two toddlers and an infant.
speaker-0 (20:48)
For sure.
speaker-1 (20:49)
yeah.
speaker-0 (20:50)
Two toddlers an infant and thirty caregivers. Like
speaker-1 (20:53)
Pretty too.
speaker-3 (20:55)
I don't know what
he's laughing at, didn't he?
speaker-1 (21:01)
But but part of it part of it was there's there's an for me, there's an idolatry that can happen with with you wanting to be understood. Mm-hmm. Like it I I didn't really want anybody to do anything for me. I just wanted everyone to know that hell was raining down and this is how it makes me feel. Right? I didn't need anybody to come and sit with me or do anything. I just needed you to pause for long enough. But that was not that was unnecessary.
That was really unnecessary. What it forced me to do was go actually go to God, do those things that we talk about, and say, Look, my wife has no capacity for me. We have talked about this. She literally doesn't have the capacity. In this season, it's not like she abandoned me. We went to therapy and we said, Look, this is what I have to give you right now. And I'm not your source. God is. So I need to go work that out. I end up meeting Preston Morrison at an event.
It was just dealing with a lot of fear and I felt like the Holy Spirit said, Talk to him. And he said, Hey, that's my thing. I like to talk to people. And so we had a meeting and he said, Look, you have all this strategy. Stop it. You need to get intimate. That's good. You need to get with God. And I I knew in my intellectual mind this is what I need to do. And I also said, I don't have the capacity to do it. And for a couple of days, I went back and forth in my quiet time. I'd have about
three minutes in and then the anxiety would hit. I have all these things to do. Still run the business, still operating in this capacity. My lawyer can call me and derail me for four hours 'cause at this point I'm writing my own petitions and counters and all those things. And at a certain point I said, Brittany, a couple of days in, she said, You know what? People who are actually in a relationship with Jesus, I don't think they would behave like you're behaving. And it it was a very tough thing to say. But but
She said, Hey, if you actually trusted him, if you actually trusted him and you're in a relationship, would you have would you be this manic? You're you're wow. And I said, I can't stand you. And you're exactly right. So at this point, that was part of that process where I started to say, you know what? Whatever it is that you want to do, because I've tried my way, it's not working. And I know I know throughout this process that that you're trying to refine something in me. So let me investigate what that is and try to get to that so I'm not in this forty years too long.
speaker-0 (23:17)
We would find ourselves like bonding over like toxic Yes. Like just complaining about what's going on around us and in this spiral of and finally I one day I said, like, we're complaining too much. Like this is just toxic for both of us. And it's it's it's like this was our way of like this is how we connect it.
and it was just terrible because it was all the negative things that are happening to us and you know, who's not showing up and what we don't have and can you believe, you know, another request coming in and ju I mean, just terrible, just terrible way of thinking.
speaker-2 (24:04)
So how do you snap out of that? You find yourself in that funk. You you didn't plan on being there. You love Jesus. You know better.
speaker-1 (24:13)
Yeah.
speaker-2 (24:13)
But that doesn't help. Yeah. So what do you do?
speaker-0 (24:15)
It's like for me, this conviction just like overwhelmed me of just stop
speaker-1 (24:24)
Brittany, help me snap out of it because she doesn't normally like to correct me. But in this particular case, she just said, Look, I don't have a bunch of words, but you're not the leader I need you to be in this household. You're not the dad that I know you you want to be. So get yourself together. And then she just walked off. And she was like and she said, That's what you like, don't you? and I just said, Okay, I called one of my friends and I said, Well, these are facts. Something has to change.
because we know all the right things, right? We we've read our Bible, we've prayed, we know all the right things, and then about three hundred and sixty-five times we need to either take courage or fear not and do what we need to do. So that's what kind of snapped me out of it. It was the it was the release. Like when when the idea when your identity is no longer tied into it, like okay, it's been across I was slandered across seven states. Like it's done. Like all that is I I need to have
speaker-2 (25:21)
Jesus,
you were a man of no reputation.
speaker-1 (25:23)
Right,
right, right. So if I don't have my identity in Christ, then I have nothing. And so when that was stripped away, there was a freedom of now we can build on the right foundation. And now none of these things, while these accolades are appreciated now, I don't I'm not holding on to them. They're not me. And so I don't think there's another way for me where I was, he had to because he had lifted me up, like I had to come down and it was good for me.
speaker-2 (25:48)
So that is that should make anybody who's not in business want to be in business. But but there is there is light at the end of the tunnel. So you guys came out of the cave, you started cleaning up culture at your company. You started you started working with another company. You're now involved in another startup. You guys just acquired a another property. You're looking at some additional properties in the it's in your living space. So
Why are you guys so willing to dive headlong in again for round two?
speaker-1 (26:20)
So however difficult this has been, it also gave us an opportunity to see who see who we were, give us the opportunity to develop in real time in humility because you're vulnerable as an entrepreneur. You're standing out in front, in front of your employees, all the responsibility, the things that happen go straight to the bottom line. It's you. So there's not a lot of room for you to say and point the finger at at someone else. And as part of that, without without
That experience or wro without this, I wouldn't know God in the way that I know him. So entrepreneurship is my pursuit of being more intimate with God, knowing who he is and knowing what he's called us to do and how we're supposed to impact his people. Yep.
speaker-3 (27:01)
What's one or two things that you wish someone would have told you sooner? As you you know, Jonathan said, you're you're headlong back into a startup and and acquiring new things. What on the other side of this, what are one or two things that you would share with the people listening or watching that you wish someone would have told you sooner?
speaker-0 (27:22)
It's not going to fall apart. In my mind, if I don't answer that call, if I, you know, if I do take the sabbatical, like someone's gonna die. You know, someone's not gonna get their medication. Someone's not like in my mind, the end of the world, you know, was going to happen. It doesn't. So even us being on this podcast, me having my I don't have my phone on.
It's not on, you know, ring or vibrate. Two years ago I would have there's no way. We're gonna have to put it over there. I'm not gonna be to see it because someone might call. It's prioritizing those things. Like this is important and so sabbatical. Us going away, that's important.
speaker-1 (28:03)
And I would say for me is that failure is a part of the process. So if if God calls you to this thing, our responsibility is to be obedient and steward that as best as we can, wise counsel, trying to understand the best things that we can do. But I I view what God's called us to do differently. If it had gone to zero, which it didn't by the grace of God, I wouldn't have believed that that was any less a part of our process in in in a counter to the words that we've been given in terms of prosperity and business and things. I understand.
understand that he has a longer vision and and that that can be a part of the process. But that is a a potentially a a losing battle and a enduring war and not the end. And I think when we got into entrepreneurship, it was like if we can't make this work, then we'll fail you. Instead of saying, God, you might want this to fail. This might be a two year thing. What if he is saying let it go? And so we got to the point in our conversation when we met and you said, hey
What if God wants you to let this go? And I start looking at that like, hey, this is our what God's calling us to and calling my wife to in this realm. It doesn't mean it's with these four properties. So when we learn to let go and really say whatever it is that you want to do, we're gonna steward this as best we can. We're not we're not failures. I don't want it, but I'm not going to press so hard in a direction that he doesn't want me to go for my pride and to keep this up.
speaker-2 (29:27)
Entrepreneurs don't have an off button. Yeah. That's part of their gifting, but that's also their Achilles heel. So it is that Lord, shall we pursue? Lord, should we step back? And at some points, he'll have you double down and push in when it makes no sense. At other times, when it looks like you're so close to victory, he'll say, Hold on, just wait. Just wait. And it's that timing that really is what makes great leaders, great entrepreneurs.
speaker-3 (29:55)
Yes, absolutely. And I think it's so beautiful. We've kind of touched on it throughout the conversation. you know, you you you had a conversation here with a friend, you had a Sunday school teacher, you had all these different people, you had wise counsel, and so many times I think entrepreneurs or business owners feel stuck and they're like, I can't get anywhere. I'm not hearing the Lord. And what we've found is that is because the Lord is wanting us to realize that we need other people.
that the whole body functions with different pieces. And so you talking to me and you talking to Jonathan and other friends, there's perspectives that are going to come through what our experiences are have been with the Lord and the the way that we know the Lord. And I think that's so beautiful. And so if you're feeling stuck and you don't know what to do, get yourself surrounded with wise counsel. Not people that are going to be yes people, but people that are going to speak into your life and people that are going to call things out.
The g say, hey, have you ever thought about this? I think that is what has been missing in the Christian marketplace so much is that we don't utilize each other because we're scared to be a fit called a failure and whatever hurts we have, but I think we've God is calling us to get past that.
Andy Mason | Heaven in Business (31:06)
You've been listening to Jonathan and Kara Sparks with Joseph and Brittany Williams. And there's going to be more of them going deeper in this same topic at the Heaven and Business Conference in Dallas. Find out more heaveninbusinesslive.com. And if you're serious about going deeper in your walk with God and community with others to grow and partnership with Him, build excellent business and multiply kingdom impact, then check out
the growth path that you can do with us, heaveninbusiness.com. You'll find all about that there.
