Andy Mason (00:00)
Hey, welcome to the conversation. I'm Andy Mason, and you're listening to the Heaven and Business podcast, where we help you navigate the messy intersection of faith, family, and business. And if you've been following along for a while, you would have heard me interview a couple of times, Shay Bynes, with particular emphasis on her book, Grace Over Grind, where Grace will take you places that grinding never will. And
I've got her back on the show for a couple of reasons. One, show you she's a personal friend. She says if if I disconnected friendships, she'll hunt me down, kill me, and and you won't find the body. No, she says it much nicer than that. But she says, No, we we are walking for life. Secondly, she's one of the people for heaven and business that I bounce things off. She's a personal advisor to us. And she's also really the creator of the grace effect, which is taking the content from that book, another book.
And really going deeper and saying, well, actually I'm not gonna answer it for you. Let's just dive right into Shay. Shay, so that this is
Shae Bynes (01:06)
Up heading.
Andy Mason (01:07)
not Andy's just talking about what you do and what I've learned. welcome to the show.
Shae Bynes (01:11)
It is always good to be with you, Andy.
Andy Mason (01:14)
So, Shay, tell us about you. You wrote the the Grace Overgrind. For those that are not aware of that book, what is the synopsis of this book just in one paragraph?
Shae Bynes (01:26)
Yeah, so the foundation is Matthew 11, 28 through 30, right? And the thing that actually completely shifted me, I'd heard that whole that his yoke is easy and has burned his light a million times, but something about the way the message Bible said it just hit different. And it said, Are you tired, worn out, burnt out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me, and you'll recover your life. I'll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me, work with me, watch how I do it, learn the unforced rhythms of grace.
I won't lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you will learn to live freely and lightly. And so from that, Andy became a whole shift in, okay, Jesus, show me what that is. What does that even look like to work in grace? What does that mean? And so that began the exploration of all the various gifts and expressions of grace that I experienced personally, then mentored others in, then started advising business owners in. And it's just been the journey, you know, from one level to the next over the last 14 years at this point.
Andy Mason (02:23)
Yeah. So it's really good. So for people that are just listening to you for the first time, give
Shae Bynes (02:28)
Yes.
Andy Mason (02:29)
us like the one minute version of your background corporate and how you then launched Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur and then Shea Bines taking the world.
Shae Bynes (02:38)
you're telling a storyteller to do that in a minute. Okay, so basically I worked in corporate for just about 11 years, l right out of college, left the leading of the Lord, even though it didn't make any sense on paper. I did leave. I went into full time entrepreneurship. From that point, I was in real estate investing at that time. Two years into that journey, I was actually learning what in the world it means to even pay attention to God as it related to work. And in the process of that,
Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur, which is that's a whole nother long story, but co-founded Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur in 2012. So we will now be, gosh, 14 years old this year, which is so wild to me. But I did not come into this conversation as an expert with 10,000 hours to show people the way. I literally was learning and growing step by step, sharing as God was leading me to share, and it just blossomed.
Andy Mason (03:32)
Yeah.
What before we just dive in further into this, what is your favorite story that you've gotten to see from working with somebody?
Shae Bynes (03:42)
Ooh, that is a really good question. actually, I don't know if this is my favorite, favorite, but this is like it is one of them and it's more recent. So I had a I have a CEO. she has a about an eight-person team in her business right now. And she came to me and said, You were the first person I'm coming to and hiring, not because I'm trying to make more money, although that would be nice, but I'm not coming to you for that. I'm coming to you because I am completely
completely exhausted. I need to know how to do this with God. I I I'm not gonna make it. I grew really fast and I don't know what to do from here. And I need to learn how to walk this out with God. And so in our initial steps together, how fast things were shifting for her was so fun for me. When she'd give me a four minute,
Andy Mason (04:30)
Just light bulb.
Shae Bynes (04:31)
yeah, it was like one thing after the other. Just even the idea of doing a business meeting with God.
Was new for her. And then as she was beginning to walk out just kind of the confidence and just I'll walk this out in faith, I we saw instantaneous levels of change. And we have just watched it grow and grow. It's been almost a year now. But she's one of my favorite testimonies because she's first of all, she's a super fast implementer. So when she's like, this is what I need to do, she's like on it immediately. And so, but it's been really good to see how God has grown her. and by the way, grown her business. She's like, I didn't expect the business to grow.
I was okay if it didn't. But she's growing and the business is growing. And so that's a beautiful thing.
Andy Mason (05:11)
So so this is probably a a great segue into this. You went from grace over grind, you will work it, you worked it out yourself, then you
Shae Bynes (05:18)
Yes.
Andy Mason (05:18)
actually articulated it beautifully in a book. So this is for business people, professionals, plenty more, but this is how do
Shae Bynes (05:25)
Yes.
Andy Mason (05:26)
you walk this life out with God? I don't
have my
Shae Bynes (05:28)
That's right.
Andy Mason (05:29)
back pocket faith. My faith informs everything I do. And
Shae Bynes (05:32)
Yes.
Andy Mason (05:33)
grace versus grind, it's not grinding under grace. It's literally
Grace over grind, it's kingdom over everything is another quote that I take off you. So
Shae Bynes (05:39)
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Andy Mason (05:43)
how would I know that I am not living from an operating system of grace which Jesus said is mine to walk in?
Shae Bynes (05:55)
Yeah. So the fruit of that shows up in a lot of different ways, often in anxiety and fear about all the things related to business, right? Financial anxiety, anxiety around what the next thing is supposed to be, anxiety about, you know, how quickly things are moving or how it's not. So it it tends to show up in anxiety. It tends to show up if your heart posture is I'm going to do this because you're trying to prove someone wrong who said something, you know, to you when you were five or something, and you're still operating that I'm going to be super independent.
Andy Mason (06:24)
Hey, you're forty.
Yeah, stop it.
Shae Bynes (06:25)
And make this happen.
Yes. So if you find yourself constantly, constantly moving and you're literally trying to prove someone or something wrong, you know, that's typically it. If you just can't seem to relax ever, you're just constantly on. you if you have a feeling that, you know, the your customers, your clients are your source versus God from a financial perspective. So you can't rest. So depending on how things are moving, is
How high your stress levels are and all of those things. And you can't find that posture of rest. There's so many ways, Andy, that it shows up. But right at the root of it is usually a sense of independence, which could be rooted, like hyper independence, which often focuses on something that's either fear or pride at ultimately at the root. Yeah, all those things are typically at the root. Some flavor of it. Yeah.
Andy Mason (07:12)
Y yeah. So fear, greed, pride, control. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
So you were just directly confronting America.
Shae Bynes (07:22)
Yeah. It's true. It's true.
Andy Mason (07:24)
Yeah. Independent
self made human beings. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nada. So so
Shae Bynes (07:30)
Nope. And forgot at that. Hyper
independent forgot.
Andy Mason (07:36)
Well, exactly. I mean, do we dive into that where there's a bunch of
Shae Bynes (07:39)
Right.
Andy Mason (07:41)
different I've got the I'm I'm just business as usual, but now I've got a Christian sticker or a kingdom sticker.
Shae Bynes (07:47)
Right. Yes.
Andy Mason (07:48)
How would you define or differentiate someone that is truly walking as a follower of Jesus in a business compared to
Shae Bynes (07:57)
Yeah.
Andy Mason (07:58)
someone that says they are, but it's just a a tattoo or a a Kool-Aid or a t-shirt or a
Shae Bynes (08:05)
Yeah.
Andy Mason (08:05)
A sticker on their back.
Shae Bynes (08:07)
Well, you know, it's interesting how I used to talk about this walking fist thing out with grace as a lifestyle and it is, but it really actually is also an operating system. You know, when you think about how you as a leader, like the posture of your heart in terms of how you do things, like w are you seeking God first? Are you seeking his ways first? His his mind, his heart, are you seeking those things first? Is that the soil that everything else is in? Are the operations of your business in line with the ways of the king?
You know, there's there's all of these things. It starts with what's in our hearts, but also how that gets expressed in the operations of our business. And so if it doesn't begin to permeate all of those things, then we get we get a lot of kind of performance based Christianity in a business context.
Andy Mason (08:49)
Yeah.
And and I think one of the quickest ways to know is ask your spouse, what am I really like?
Shae Bynes (08:54)
Huh?
Andy Mason (08:55)
ask your kids, possibly ask your dog. Definitely don't ask your cat because they're never gonna tell you anything good. But ask those closest to you. If
Shae Bynes (09:04)
Yeah.
Andy Mason (09:04)
you've got a team, if you've got an executive assistant, hey I I got I probably shouldn't tell you this, but I I got an executive assistant and I got some great feedback that in a previous job,
They were were, you know, coming into the start of the week, just anxiety's building. And they just gave me feedback. I come into the week with you, Andy, and I don't have anxiety. And I'm thinking, okay, that that's great feedback for me, because
Shae Bynes (09:33)
Yes.
Andy Mason (09:34)
if I'm not operating from a grace operating system, yeah, they are gonna be coming into the week already jacked up. What what how we
Shae Bynes (09:41)
That's right.
Andy Mason (09:42)
I can't, I can't, I can never do enough. it's not gonna work.
How's it gonna and that's that constant grind?
Shae Bynes (09:48)
Yes.
Andy Mason (09:49)
Okay, so Shay, you went from writing the book, Grace of a Grind, and obviously teaching, working, coaching, consulting, advising, training, and then you've created the the grace effect. What is
Shae Bynes (10:02)
Yes.
Andy Mason (10:02)
that and why did you set it up?
Shae Bynes (10:06)
Well, the why is definitely God. I could have equipped believers for the rest of my life in this, and I would have been fine with that. But one of the things the Lord was showing me about, I think this was about five years ago now, was that He wanted me to take what the work that had been done in equipping believers and now expand it to reach anybody. So regardless of what other faith context is, that they can actually experience the goodness of grace, which is by the way, accessible to all.
But how can you bring this and show this as a transformational impact for company culture, leadership culture, all of those things? So it began because it was a God thing, which is the beginning point for most shifts that I'm making as it relates to business. So it started there. So then the first assignment was write this one, Grace Under Pressure, which is the first no scripture book about some of these concepts, talking about these.
gifts of grace, but in a fictional story with a short little nonfiction on the side. And so it started there and then went from after releasing that book, I was exploring with God, okay, so now I've I've created one resource, but what are you showing me? And so he started showing me the framework of work that I'd been doing for years and showing me how these pieces come together for a CEO with team. With Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur, the largest percentage of the community are solopreneurs or maybe they have one or two
people working with them. But God wanted me to take this into places where they were stewarding company culture. So the small business CEO, eventually the mid size. In the future, I also believe at a corporate level that how this becomes the operating system and shifts things so that both your people and your results can flourish. So that's how the framework
Andy Mason (11:48)
So there's
Shae Bynes (11:48)
came to be.
Andy Mason (11:49)
yeah, so so there's a couple of things. One, you personally learning, and then you're working with solopreneurs, and then
Shae Bynes (11:56)
Yes.
Andy Mason (11:57)
then you start to work with people with more and more employees. So it's going into companies, it's heading into corporate. But
Shae Bynes (12:00)
Correct. That's right. Yes.
Andy Mason (12:04)
then are you saying that you're shifting it so then it becomes? I mean, our friend Ford Taylor calls it plain glass versus stained glass. Stained glass being Christian language, it's led with scriptures, it's got foundations.
plain glass being anybody could read it, anybody could pick it up, and they wouldn't necessarily
Shae Bynes (12:22)
Yes.
Andy Mason (12:22)
know that it's the scripture, but it's one hundred percent. Why that journey? And do you feel like the Lord is is taking you to use you as a voice or a translator or a discipler, disciple nations,
Shae Bynes (12:35)
Yes.
Andy Mason (12:35)
disciple them in the ways, the nature of God. Is is that what's going on?
Shae Bynes (12:40)
Believe that what's going on is that the world needs more and more and more of the goodness of the kingdom and it needs to be accessible. Just the way Jesus made things accessible, it needs to be accessible to people. Do I believe that it will ultimately lead to an encounter with Jesus for some people? Yes. Do I believe it may just people experience the goodness of it and may or may not embrace Jesus as Lord and Savior? Yes. Right. But the ways of the kingdom are needed.
Right. And they're needed in it. So this is really ultimately around, you know, people flourishing, organizations flourishing, teams being liberated, organizations having results that they never could have orchestrated on their own. It's for the goodness of people, goodness for the communities that they serve. That's ultimately what it's about. So I believe God just wants more of his goodness out and accessible to all. And it gets to serve as a seed and invitation in however way God chooses to work that.
Andy Mason (13:34)
So
I've got so many questions rattling my round my head in this regard. And we'll we'll come back to some of these. But first one, how would you define and communicate grace and
Shae Bynes (13:46)
Yes.
Andy Mason (13:46)
the effect or impact of grace to someone that does not have a biblical grid? They're not they're not from the American South, which probably haven't read their Bibles anyway. They they're not from a biblical grounded point of view.
How would you define it
Shae Bynes (14:03)
Yes.
Andy Mason (14:04)
and communicate that?
Shae Bynes (14:05)
So that's a fantastic question. And that was the question I was asking the Lord when I got this assignment to do that. Because I always, I, even in Grace of a Grind, I talk about grace as a divine enabled it. But what I'll say is to be all that God's called you to be, to do all God's called you to do and experience more than you could ever do on your own. I haven't taken out the divine aspect of things with grace.
Andy Mason (14:26)
Good, good.
Shae Bynes (14:27)
It is what it is. And we'll get back to that in a second.
But I do focus in on that power beyond you, that power beyond yourself. And
Andy Mason (14:36)
Yeah.
Shae Bynes (14:36)
so whether unless somebody has a complete, you know, if they're completely averse to the idea of power beyond themselves, they're not going to connect to this. But regardless of their background of faith, if they if they can connect to the idea that there is power beyond them, then that's it already is like, okay, let me hear more. So that's how I'm defining it.
And so even when I go through the framework and when the foundational part is called ground, the foundational pillar. And I talk about wisdom meetings. In Grace of a Grind, I call it business meetings with God. In the Grace Effect, I'm calling it wisdom meetings. And I'm, by the way, I'm unapologetic that my that my background is Jesus. And I believe Jesus is the personification of grace. So I'm unapologetic about that. But when I'm walking
Andy Mason (15:20)
Jesus is the
person let's just say that. Jesus is the personification. I
Shae Bynes (15:24)
The personification of grace.
Andy Mason (15:26)
like that.
Shae Bynes (15:26)
And so I'm unapologetic about that. So I say that, but I just don't hammer it. It's just it's said and it's done. But people I have found when I talk about the gifts and expressions of grace when it comes to things like rest and sustainable rhythms and peace and faithful collaborations, everybody wants that. So when I've spoken and I didn't,
Andy Mason (15:46)
Yeah. That's good.
Shae Bynes (15:48)
and I didn't really had a full appreciation for that because I'm always surrounded by believers because of the work that I do.
Until I started then speaking into groups that were mixed faith and realizing, this is resonating
Andy Mason (15:59)
Everybody else.
Shae Bynes (16:00)
still. And so it's been me walking it out and and that growth over the last, I don't know, three years at this point, not surrounded by believers all the time. I'm still learning.
Andy Mason (16:10)
I I I'm I
I love this. Yeah. So what you're saying is the way of Jesus works,
Shae Bynes (16:16)
Yes.
Andy Mason (16:17)
whether you say it's the way of Jesus or not, and we're gonna come back to that.
Shae Bynes (16:21)
Yes.
Andy Mason (16:21)
But everybody, regardless of where you're at, is seeking inner peace. I I mean, I've got
Shae Bynes (16:27)
Yes.
Andy Mason (16:27)
a medical friend and he says the four pillars of of medical well from a medical standpoint as a medical doctor is nutrition, hydration, exercise, and inner peace. And now he's
Shae Bynes (16:39)
That's right.
Andy Mason (16:39)
like, Yeah, and that
In a piece is 75% of everything else.
And you and I. Yeah, and
Shae Bynes (16:44)
Yes. I love his work and I interviewed him. He's fantastic.
Andy Mason (16:47)
so it's really good. Okay, so let's just nail this one. You're from the south. Like thou shalt,
Shae Bynes (16:53)
I mean if you want to call Florida the South, yes.
Andy Mason (16:55)
yeah, yeah, thou shalt not communicate anything without a Bible verse. How how do you how have you walked through not having scripture, not being over as overt as you have been?
in the past. I mean kingdom driven entrepreneur teaching people to hear the voice of God and engage with him in scripture and through his word and his ways.
Shae Bynes (17:18)
Yes.
Andy Mason (17:19)
And now you you are transitioning and having a a vehicle or a lens or I don't want to put words in your mouth. Wha what? How do you how have you wrestled or navigated that?
Shae Bynes (17:29)
I'm just calling it accessible,
an accessible framework that makes grace practical. That's what I'm that's what I'm calling it. And and and you know this process.
Andy Mason (17:37)
An accessible
framework that no, is that right? Accessible framework that makes grace practical. I
Shae Bynes (17:44)
Yes.
Andy Mason (17:45)
like that.
Shae Bynes (17:45)
That's, I mean, that's that's what's happening here. Now, I will just transparently, the journey hasn't been an easy one because the fact of the matter is I know, I know the route, you know, I know relationship with Jesus changed everything for me in this context. So it wasn't easy to not feel like I was cheating people when I was beginning this work.
I I wrestled with God a lot around this. So I personally had to walk through the process of how do I articulate it? I remember when I was writing Grace Under Pressure, I'm like, so Lord, at the end, should I add like a like at the very, very end, should I kind of, you know, tease a little something? Like if you really want to know, like, you know, it's like, no, this is not the assignment, right? Let me do that work. Like you do the assignment, let me do mine, you know?
So it would that was definitely, I would say, a several month tension for me to walk through
Andy Mason (18:43)
Okay.
Shae Bynes (18:45)
that. I do not what broke that tension for me was the first time speaking to a group of mixed faith people and realizing this resonates with them. And I was like, okay, so that's helpful to know. And now I'm just going to walk this out and let it and let it be like what it's gonna be and just be parabolic in nature, right? Just walk this thing out. I I
firmly believe in just kingdom principled things for the world. It's just I definitely had to struggle with it because just how transformational it was for me and the work I've done for so many years, it was a little bit of a little bit of a tension there.
Andy Mason (19:22)
Yeah, and and for those listening, I know and trust Shay has a is a devoted follower. She's paid the price personally for years of listening and following what God has said, regardless. It it truly is
Shae Bynes (19:34)
Yes.
Andy Mason (19:35)
grace over grind and kingdom over everything. So I I can validate that for you. I it's just interesting watching that and and navigating and and the pastor or the preacher or the evangelist may, yeah, yeah, you're just doing an evangelistic thing. But you cannot control the outcome. It's one
Shae Bynes (19:51)
No.
Andy Mason (19:51)
One sows, one waters, but God gives the increase. And so this is seed, and He's the only one that uses it, which is fascinating. So
Shae Bynes (20:00)
And it's
and if it leads to flourishing leaders, flourishing organizations, flourishing communities of which they serve, tell me the bad news. So to me, that's the beauty in the journey. I just, yes, I had to go through my own, you know, little tension of that, but I feel really good with where we've landed. It's the assignment. I'm happy to do it. And I continue to do the other work too. eventually, I'm not there yet, Andy, but eventually I want to be just as comfortable.
In an environment talking about this message in a company of believers and a company in a in a huge room of folks that I have absolutely no idea. Like I'm not there yet from a confidence level. I need reps for that. But but I feel really good about what God's doing. And I'll tell you the other thing that was really inspiring to me, Andy, was I read this book. It was called, I'm probably gonna I think the book was called Hope Rising, but it was about the science of hope. And when I was reading it, the Holy Spirit was showing me how.
Love showed up as servant leadership from a
Andy Mason (21:02)
Yeah.
Shae Bynes (21:03)
marketplace, the leadership context. And that's been for like 50 years at this point. Then hope, for like maybe like the last 20 years or so, it's like all of a sudden, it's like, then it was the science of hope. And there was research. And it's like, and the people who are behind, there's a lot of their believers and like, hey, we're Christians, but I mean, but hope, there's a science of hope. And here's here's the results that we're seeing in leaders and in organizations. And so when I saw that, I'm like,
I get to be a part of Grace being part of that conversation. Spirituality and leadership is not new. That's that's that's already accepted on the table. And so the fact that love has gone forward, hope has gone forward, I'm just excited that I get to see part of Grace going forward.
Andy Mason (21:44)
Yeah, which which leads me to the next part of walking with you for maybe ten plus years. And seeing the
Shae Bynes (21:50)
More than ten for sure.
Andy Mason (21:52)
journey in you, there's a part of it and people watching this. One, here's a quick win. Go grab the book, a Grace Overgrind, grab the book, the and a Grace Under Pressure. Those two
Shae Bynes (22:02)
Yes.
Andy Mason (22:02)
is gonna help you get started. Connect with GraceShabines dot com. You can find about that. You'll see the grace effect. You can jump into
Shae Bynes (22:09)
Yes.
Andy Mason (22:10)
that. But I think there's a second story here.
And it's the journey of Shay and
Shae Bynes (22:16)
Yeah.
Andy Mason (22:16)
God unfolding his purpose from Shea corporate to Shea entrepreneur. Then that's a that's a whoo, that's like a big change.
Shae Bynes (22:25)
Yes.
Andy Mason (22:26)
Then Grace leading kingdom-driven entrepreneur and
Shae Bynes (22:29)
Yes.
Andy Mason (22:30)
then and riding Grace over grind and seeing hundreds of thousands of devotions on U vers U version, that expansion, and
Shae Bynes (22:39)
Yes.
Andy Mason (22:39)
then.
Handing that over to your husband, Phil, who's now the CEO. That's another story of how
Shae Bynes (22:44)
That's a whole other story.
Andy Mason (22:45)
do you do like working through this, and now you're stepping into really coaching, consulting, and being an advisor and influencer of higher and higher level leaders.
Shae Bynes (22:56)
Yes.
Andy Mason (22:57)
What what's for those that are listening and watching that part of the story, the perceptive? What are you learning about how God leads people over their lifetime?
Shae Bynes (23:09)
Yeah. I mean, I just, I just keep saying from glory to glory to glory. I mean, when I even when I'm talking to people about grace over grind, I'm like, you don't graduate. You don't graduate from this. It's like you experience it, and then God opens up a whole nother world of stuff to you, and you're like, also you almost feel like a baby in it again. You're like, I get to experience now in a different context. I now, but it's growing our relationship with God. It's growing our relationship with how we get to express.
The goodness of God to those around us. And it just keeps going from one level to the next. If you just keep saying yes, right, then you get to just, I call it the wild and crazy and amazing adventure with God. It's like, okay, well, what's the next step? Well, well, I'll yes, I'll walk through that. What's the next step? Yes, I'll walk through that. Sometimes trembling, but yes, I'll walk through that. Right. And I just, it's not a graduation. It's just we get to spirit experience
Andy Mason (23:58)
Yeah.
Shae Bynes (23:59)
more and more of the goodness of God.
Andy Mason (24:00)
And I don't want to highlight this because if you're if you're listening to this and you're hearing Chase's story and you're like, wow, that's whiplash, whiplash, whiplash, sh she could still be in corporate and you would have you would have a very, very good salary, a very, very good retirement, a very
Shae Bynes (24:15)
Yes. Yes.
Andy Mason (24:17)
good house or two or three, and and and no pressure in that. And then the how like if you stayed in real estate.
If you'd stayed
Shae Bynes (24:27)
Right.
Andy Mason (24:28)
leading Kingdom Drum, each one of these like could have been separate and going on on their own. And each time you've had a conviction to let go
Shae Bynes (24:37)
Yes.
Andy Mason (24:37)
and embrace something new.
Shae Bynes (24:39)
Yes.
Andy Mason (24:39)
So how important you said just keep saying yes. Sounds easy, but I know you enough to and I've walked with you. It it
Shae Bynes (24:47)
It's simple, not easy.
Andy Mason (24:49)
yeah, simple, not easy. How
Shae Bynes (24:52)
Right.
Andy Mason (24:53)
and yet nobody would have known.
if you'd stayed in. Actually, you would have looked more like the successful Christian businesswoman if you'd stayed in corporate and the influence that you would have had, but you've
Shae Bynes (25:02)
That's probably true. Yeah.
Andy Mason (25:05)
chosen to forsake that to follow something greater. What
Shae Bynes (25:09)
Yeah.
Andy Mason (25:09)
is in you that you're crazy enough to keep saying yes to Jesus?
Shae Bynes (25:15)
Encountered Jesus for real. I was his perfect love cast out my fear more than my little when I said sometimes I'm shaky, but his perfect love casts out the levels of fear that give me just enough to be able to be like, even if I'm trembling a little bit, I'm gonna do it. I just desire if there's something on God's heart concerning me, I want to experience it. I I wouldn't want to go to the end of my life and be with with a regret of.
I feel like I was being invited into something by the creator of the universe, the one who knows the end from the beginning, who, you know, who knew me before my mama did, and said, nah, I'm good on that. I I just can't reconcile that. And so for me, that's why I call it the adventure, because I'm willing to do it. And it's not like all of these leaps. There's a process for me every time in these transitions. It's not like a,
He said it on Monday and Tuesday I'm out. It's not like that. It's been a process each time, but but it started with a with a yes. I'm still make I'm still doing yeses today, right? Around things that I feel about, that it's like, okay, it starts with that yes, and I'm gonna walk this thing out with you.
Andy Mason (26:26)
Yeah, I I like this, Shay. And I mean, this is not where I expected to go on this call, but I just think we lean into this. Now, if you're listening and watching
Shae Bynes (26:33)
Yeah. You know how we roll.
Andy Mason (26:35)
this right now, and you know that you know that you're exactly where you are, do not change the subject, the lane, lean in and keep doing that. And for everybody else, when was the last time you checked in? And how
Shae Bynes (26:50)
Yeah.
Andy Mason (26:50)
would you know? You're probably comfortable, you're cruising.
you've got the retirement fund, the emergency fund, the second house fund, the missions fund. You've got all it. It's all working. And you do not need God to do anything because
Shae Bynes (27:05)
Mm-hmm.
Andy Mason (27:05)
you are the classic American Christian business person and everything is in this nice little box. And I just want to shake the box a bit. Shay, how would you shake people up out
Shae Bynes (27:18)
Mm-hmm.
Andy Mason (27:19)
of comfort? And I know you go backwards and forwards to South Africa and and
Shae Bynes (27:23)
Do.
Andy Mason (27:24)
teach and train down there. So
Shae Bynes (27:24)
Yeah.
Andy Mason (27:25)
that that gives us an edge. But if I'm just surrounded by my neighbor with his three cars and two dogs and trees that he spends more on his irrigation than he does on missions. Like like how do you how do you keep this edge of dependence on God regardless? If I'm staying in corporate, cool. If I'm stepping into the unknown, it forces that.
How do I keep my dependence and my surrender and my
Shae Bynes (27:55)
Yeah.
Andy Mason (27:56)
yieldedness to God on a day daily basis?
Shae Bynes (27:59)
those are interesting words that you that you just use because you and I had this conversation before we hit record, and you were talking about you love this picture that I have of the grind operating system, and then those roots. There is the there was fear and there was pride, right? And you just use if if I'm creating the tree that's on the grace operating system, what you're gonna see in the roots that's in the soil, you've got you've got all the goodness of God, that's all the supernatural stuff that's just leaning into God, but you've got trust.
And you have surrender. And without
those two things right there, which are decisions empowered by empowered by God, right? But I mean, but those are decisions that posture you for all the goodness that grace has to offer. So what while some people could hear parts of my story and say, I could never do that, I'd say, well, if I was, if I was having a trust issue and a surrender issue.
If I was still needing to have control over all the outcomes, perceived perception, over all the outcomes, I would have, I would say the same thing that you're saying about myself. But that's not the case. Because walking this out with Jesus, I have learned to grow and trust. And I've learned to let go of the need to feel like perceived, by the way, I have control over all the things I don't. And even better that I don't, because God's got way better than whatever I could have for myself.
And I didn't mean that in a materialistic kind of way. It can include those things, but it's just just in just an overall holistic way, it's just way better. I have no regrets from that perspective.
Andy Mason (29:39)
Yeah.
So if you're watching this and you're questioning the question, what's your level of comfort compared to I have learned to be content regardless?
Shae Bynes (29:52)
Yeah.
Andy Mason (29:52)
I mean I'd I would challenge people listening. How much is your time with Jesus listening to his voice? Don't call it a quiet time, call it an all the time, but time in his word, time engaging. When was the last time you
exposed yo something yourself to something that you could not control. Go on a trip. Like ask your pastor of your local church, hey, can I go on a trip? Come with us. We we take people with us to different places. Come to a heaven a business event. How else might you give someone a gentle shove out of comfort?
Shae Bynes (30:28)
I would well, I'm not sure if this is a shove out of comfort. I want to encourage people to ask God some questions and then just
Andy Mason (30:34)
very much what.
Shae Bynes (30:36)
see how that plays out for them. Okay.
Andy Mason (30:38)
What questions would you ask?
Shae Bynes (30:39)
So I actually just I just shared these questions at a summit recently. I I love to ask the father, what is on your heart concerning this? So take whatever the thing is. So if you're saying, hey, I'm really feeling like there's something in kind of my work life that's I don't know, I think maybe there's an invitation for it, I don't know, or whatever.
Ask the Father, what is on your heart concerning this? Okay. And then you ask Jesus, extraordinary strategist, you ask Jesus, what is your strategy concerning this? And then ask Holy Spirit, spirit of wisdom, and also the best teacher, not your experience is the best teacher, Holy Spirit's the best teacher. Ask Holy Spirit, what's the wisdom that you want me to know?
Now you might get scripture references, you might get just a thought that comes very clearly for you. It might be a conversation you have with someone the next day, you know, who knows? But at least seek God. If heaven has blueprints, let's seek heaven. So that's the invitation because for me, that's how that's how this became a thing, is with God.
And it hasn't changed. Yeah.
Andy Mason (31:48)
So
in a nutshell, there is so much more. There is so much more.
Shae Bynes (31:52)
There's so much more.
Andy Mason (31:54)
And it's all beyond our fingertips because there's more when we rely and depend on him. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on what you think you know. In all your ways, acknowledge him and he will direct your paths. I think that's the greatest challenge is for business people.
Shae Bynes (32:06)
Yes, he will direct your path. Yes.
Andy Mason (32:10)
We think we know. I mean, we're taught, we're trained. The vision, the mission, the objectives, the strategies, the action plan. We're going.
And actually the truth is you just don't know. You're actually not that smart,
Shae Bynes (32:21)
You don't know.
Andy Mason (32:22)
but there is so much more. What I know is this is so good. There's you've got some resources there. But the greatest thing is if if you're you're listening right now and you're like, man, I want more of that, you can get a little bit from a book, but the only way to truly grow is walking with others, live,
Shae Bynes (32:40)
Yes.
Andy Mason (32:40)
real. I know we do that with heavenandbusiness.com. People can find out more. There's a growth path.
where it's intentional growth. Shay,
Shae Bynes (32:48)
Yes.
Andy Mason (32:49)
how can people, if they say, I want, I resonate, connect with you, how can people grow with you?
Shae Bynes (32:55)
Yeah, absolutely. So I would yes recommend starting with reading Grace of a Grind if you haven't. If you want to explore this not only for yourself but organizationally, I really encourage you to go over to GraceEffect.co, GraceEffect.co. with the Grace Effect, I have a newsletter there. You could sign up for that twice a month. You'll get something. There's a premium membership as well over there where I actually do walk with people, you know, once a month to help them walk out Grace as the operating system of their leadership. So that's where they can go.
Andy Mason (33:25)
Well, I appreciate you. I thank you for your friendship. And I just pray everybody as you're listening to this that you get to have friends like Shay that are unafraid to ask you the hard questions that can give you a very different perspective and you build those relationships over time so that together we fully grow into everything that Jesus paid for. And for you and
Shae Bynes (33:47)
Yes.
Andy Mason (33:48)
I, that's in the business space, in the marketplace,
Shae Bynes (33:50)
Yes.
Andy Mason (33:51)
in the workplace, and it's game on.
Shae Bynes (33:54)
That's it.
Andy Mason (33:55)
Thanks, Shay.
Shae Bynes (33:56)
Absolutely.
