Andy Mason (00:02)
Hey, welcome to the conversation. I'm Andy Mason. You're the Heaven and Business Podcast. And today we want to dive into how do you know the assignment God has for your life? Faithfully steward that and then navigate the changes that are inevitable along the way. Now, I've got with me a special guest, Jay Jacob. If you've ever heard of the economics of mutuality, you'd know all about Jay. But this is probably not what we would normally talk to him about. So
Andy Mason (00:30)
for those of you wondering what is that, and some of his background with CIA, with the national security in the United States, and then Mars Corporation, and then writing books, Economics of Mutuality, and now he's in Palm Beach. Significant career and what he's done. But Jay, how.
Andy Mason (00:50)
Did you get started as a follower of Jesus and in starting your career? How did you know what to give your life to?
Jay Jakub (01:00)
No, thank you for the question and for the nice introduction. Yeah, I've had a a a very different kind of life's walk and journey, so to speak. I was raised as an Anglican actually, but it was Father, Son, and Holy Scripture. So I didn't really get to know the Holy Spirit until much later in life. My wife was Greek Orthodox and and so we we we both were baptized in the Holy Spirit in the middle of this walk, but pursued a career in in national security first.
Jay Jakub (01:28)
I was something I was always fascinated with. Studied international relations and and economics to some degree and and also political science when I was getting my first degrees and went into into government quite by chance. basically I was having trouble finding a job in private industry with no experience, and I had a very senior person at the Pentagon who consented to interview me, look at me and say, you know, I don't know exactly why you're here since you have no experience yet. You know, did you ever think about working for the CIA? And I literally put a
Jay Jakub (01:55)
Did something very unprofessional. I just put a resume without a cover letter, not even a zip code. I just put CIA Langley, Virginia, and I sent it off. And next thing you know, I was in that business for a while. But it progressed, it progressed both on the intelligence analysis side initially, the kind of cerebral academic side. And then in the middle of my career, I was persuaded to to switch to the clandestine service. So I had a chance to work on on both sides of the house.
Jay Jakub (02:22)
Then was moved to to actually leave that organization. And I thought that I had run away from it far enough because I went to the UK to get my doctorate and but and I was at Oxford and but then the doctorate I chose to get the topic was on intelligence history, and so that brought me back in through the House Intelligence Oversight Committee on Capitol Hill when I returned to the United States again just by by chance, and I wound up being the chief investigator there and running some of the subcommittees, including the one that was created just
Jay Jakub (02:51)
before nine eleven that wound up managing the response of the House of Representatives to nine eleven. And so that was
Andy Mason (02:57)
So
Jay Jakub (02:57)
a real tangled part of my first career.
Andy Mason (03:00)
So within that, how many years was that, Jay?
Jay Jakub (03:04)
So it was about I wanna say seven years in CIA initially. And then I left to do the doctorate. I came back. I worked for about eight and a half years on Capitol Hill, including as a national security advisor for a senator who became the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. And then when my chairman in the House Intelligence Committee got unexpectedly named the director of CIA, he brought me over to be a senior advisor. So I I served with him during his relatively short tenure, and when he stepped
Jay Jakub (03:30)
Down from the job, it was a bit of a surprise for me and I wasn't really thinking about about where I would go next. But I knew that I didn't want to stay in government and in national security. And so that put me on this trajectory that that landed me at at Mars in quite the most unusual way actually.
Andy Mason (03:47)
So pause on that because people are fascinated by so many different aspects of your story. But what we want to talk about is knowing your assignment, following your assignment, and knowing that you're living for something far bigger than you. So firstly, thank you for your service. Secondly, you mentioned a couple of times by chance, by chance, by chance, looking back, what would you say? Where was the influence of God and following him even when you had no idea?
Jay Jakub (04:15)
I know. That's a good question because I think I'd I'd bring us back to to where I was when I stepped down from this long career in government, which lasted about 17 years, and finished in that senior role at CIA. And it was a difficult time in my life because my wife had a professional career also in business, and we had adopted two children from Ukraine as babies just after 9/11, just in the months after 9-11, and and then her.
Jay Jakub (04:44)
her father had passed away and we had taken her mother in to live with us a widow. So literally we were we were trying to to to be as faithful as possible with widows and orphans. And my mother in law was dying of cancer and my wife was her caregiver as well as raising our kids. And suddenly I was stepping down from this longtime government role and not sure what I'm gonna do next. And it was the first time I remember stepping out of my own strength and moving away from this worshiping the idol of knowledge, which I think was what led me.
Jay Jakub (05:12)
into into
Andy Mason (05:12)
Okay.
Jay Jakub (05:12)
CIA initially and trusting in God. And I just remember falling on my knees and asking the Lord, what what do I do now? I don't know what to do. I don't know where to go. And then of course I I then reverted quickly into my own strength and generated this was a critical moment in my life if you can bear with me. I think it it it will answer your question. I I stepped back into my trusting in my own strength and used my whole network and experience and contacts to
Jay Jakub (05:37)
to generate two job opportunities that came literally in the same week. And they were both very good job opportunities. And one of them was with a large multinational corporation, but it was in a job that would have worked with a lot of other senior government officials that had moved out. So it was, it was kind of like in having the security of not having to really transition from government into business, because it was almost like working in government and business. And the and the you know it was a secure job in a good place.
Jay Jakub (06:04)
And then the other job really was more as a lobbyist. And it wasn't something I was all that interested in, but but I had an opportunity to make a significant amount of money, much more than I'd ever made in a government job. And then I had this kind of relationship with the with the chief economist of Mars who was running the internal think tank, this family-owned, privately held company that makes MMs and pet foods and things that happened to just have a headquarters 10 minutes walk from my house, which was also almost within walking distance of CIA. It was a just a very unusual moment.
Jay Jakub (06:33)
But I didn't have a job offer from CIA. And then I got these two job offers. And at any other moment in my life, Andy, I would have just taken the burden hand. And here I had two, very young kids who were adopted. My wife was not working anymore in a professional job to earn money. And she was taking care of a dying mother with us as well. I had a desperate desperation to make a living. And I would have taken taken either the job that gave me security or that or the one that gave me money. And I just prayed to the Lord and He just said, Turn them down. And I was shocked.
Jay Jakub (07:03)
That that the Lord was basically saying, I have something better for you. And very uncharacteristically I turned down both of those job offers. And then about two months later I got hired by Mars and was led into what I believe is my vocation because of just the the incredible amount of satisfaction that I've had in this work, this the sense of purpose and and just following following God every step of the way.
Andy Mason (07:27)
So there's there's so much in this. you talked about it. now you could look back and you say, I was worshiping the God of knowledge. And then you attempted to worship the God of comfort and money or profit, but actually
Jay Jakub (07:40)
Madden.
Andy Mason (07:41)
it was being on your knees shifted you into what you are now. Go back. Because you said there's an aspect of trying to be faithful. For someone listening to your story, they'll be like, hang on a moment.
Andy Mason (07:55)
You worked in some of the most powerful halls in the world for 17 years. There that wasn't insignificant. And I certainly believe that God would have redeemed and and used everything. He does anyway. For someone listening to you right now, maybe they're young, maybe they're asking the questions about my assignment. How would you advise them in terms of no what's faithful?
Andy Mason (08:19)
And how do I know that I'm just listening to an idol in my heart, whether that be knowledge, profit, comfort, security, whatever it is?
Jay Jakub (08:27)
Yes, again, a good a good question and a very important one. Andy, I I was pursuing this idol of knowledge that I mentioned earlier, thinking that only only through understanding everything, knowing all the secrets of the of the world, knowing all the information, surrounding myself with books, for example. I had thousands of books in my house as a substitute almost for for trusting in the Lord. that led me astray and it led me down
Jay Jakub (08:54)
a pathway into organizations that I don't sit in judgment of at all because I I had I had good reasons I think for for wanting to serve my country in that way and I know others do as well. But I was really focused on the ends justifying the means in that kind of business in national security where you're focused almost entirely on the worst aspects of human existence because you're looking at all the bad things that could happen and trying to figure out you know what compromises you need to make
Jay Jakub (09:23)
to to stop people doing what it is they're doing, doing harm to to your country and your countrymen. And that causes you to to to make some spiritual choices that I think are compromises. And I know now for a fact that when I left those organizations, I really felt like the Lord was saying the ends never justify the means, that He wants us to to focus just on the means, how we treat others. And if we're faithful in the means, if we're faithful in the small things,
Jay Jakub (09:49)
Then he will take care of the ends in in every way. So being able to move out of the darkness of focusing on the worst aspects of human existence and to be able to focus on the kinder, gentler world of chocolate and pet food was a was a huge blessing for me. And I can remember Andy thinking
Andy Mason (10:02)
Hey
Jay Jakub (10:04)
back that I needed to repent for having not followed the Lord, for having been swimming against the current, if I can put it that way. But the Lord really stilled my heart on that subject when I when I shared my concerns with him.
Jay Jakub (10:19)
That I'd somehow wasted those years. And he's redeemed those years in so many ways. And the scripture talks about redeeming the years that have been eaten by the moth and the canker worm. And he's done that over and over. And he's utilized aspects and relationships that I've had and things that I've learned over those years in in government to to help me do what small amount I can to advance his kingdom through a vocation that he's given me.
Andy Mason (10:41)
Yeah, and I love this. So for those that are listening right now and you feel like you have wasted, or you didn't even you weren't even serving the Lord, period. Or will you do just a token service of the Lord and what you're doing in business? Or wherever that may be, just know that. He is a gracious, kind, merciful God that forgives so much so that then redeems what you have done. So don't discard it, but certainly come and say, God, what do you want me to do? This life is yours. It's not.
Andy Mason (11:09)
I I love that. And then you're saying then faithfully serve. It's not about the KPIs, the outcomes. All of those things are the fruit of then I I love it, I put it in the language of Matthew five. Matthew five or Matthew six, it is in there, seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things get added. It's crazy. So jump
Jay Jakub (11:27)
Yeah. Mm.
Andy Mason (11:28)
us into Mars. You're working for, I just think that's that's the smartest thing on the world. Work for a chocolate factory. That's that's gotta be chocolate and ice cream. Like here we go.
Andy Mason (11:39)
So tell us about w you're in their think tag. what is what does that look like? W what what did that involve and how did that how did you know? Now I'm I'm is my soul singing? How how do I know that I'm now I was born for this? This I'm in in the lane that God has before me now.
Jay Jakub (12:00)
I think one of the ways that you know that, Andy, is when you feel totally unsuited to a role that you're given, to responsibilities you're given, and yet you feel completely fulfilled by it, and then God equips you to actually deliver for it. So I was hired out of government and and hired into a large multinational corporation, you know, family-owned, privately held. Mars is actually the family name owned by three.
Jay Jakub (12:24)
branches of the of the Mars family. Very a reputation for ultra discretion and secretiveness. In fact, there was a joke inside the inside the company and in the neighborhood, remembering that CIA was just a mile and a half away from the global headquarters of Mars, that that there are only two organization or that there are two secret organizations in McLean, Virginia, but only one is discrete and we know that it's not the CIA. So that's that was a joke inside Mars. They didn't even have a sign on their building. And
Andy Mason (12:46)
wow.
Jay Jakub (12:51)
And far, so it was in my neighborhood on the same street as my post office. I lived there meant for many years. I didn't even know Mars had a had a had a capability inside my neighborhood, much less its global headquarters. So they were super, super discreet. And they also had this mutuality principle that was created by the by the founder of the company, Forrest Mars Sr. When he was running the company, he really talked about this mutuality of benefits being one of the core principles of Mars, where every business decision needed to be informed by this idea of mutuality that.
Jay Jakub (13:20)
re and reciprocity that everybody had to actually benefit. You had to have win-wins in the organization. And back in the nineteen sixties, this Forrest Mars Sr., who was the inspiration by the way, for the Willy Wonka character, again getting back to
Andy Mason (13:32)
wow.
Jay Jakub (13:32)
the to the secretive nature or or discretion of of that corporate culture. And he created this internal think tank that had to be the most eclectic eccentric kind of entity that I could imagine in that in that workplace, because it was set up to challenge orthodox business thinking.
Jay Jakub (13:48)
With a ring fence budget and an open-ended remit. So basically, we had the freedom to go out and develop breakthrough transformational kinds of solutions and capabilities for the company based entirely on where we were being led without any sort of pressure to to follow an operational direction. We had to be free actually to try new things. And so to ensure that from happening, there were some ingenious things that were embedded in our ways of working, like we had a failure metric.
Jay Jakub (14:15)
what company has a failure metric where if the unit doesn't fail enough, because we're not taking enough risks to be transformational, then you would be penalized in your bonus. So it's innovative things like that.
Andy Mason (14:22)
Wow. And and just for peop
Andy Mason (14:26)
for people to get the context, this is not a small company. This is this is not an entrepreneur or startup that's failing all its way forward. This is how how big's the company, how long had it existed at this point? And then thirdly, from an MBA standpoint, I know you and I have talked about this before, but the the MBA thinking of what success was in business is the complete opposite of what you were doing. So
Andy Mason (14:49)
Give us the context of the size of the company, size scale, and then what was the thinking at the time from an MBA standpoint that you were just flying in the face of?
Jay Jakub (14:59)
Right. All right, so the so the company started around the Mars bar, or the Milky Way bar, actually is what it was called in the United States. And the Mars Bar was the version reformulated in the UK that Forrest Mars Sr. kind of took to learn the chocolate business. That's kind of how it started about a hundred years ago, 120 years ago or so. And this this company started when I was joining the company at the end of 2006.
Jay Jakub (15:24)
The size was roughly $22, $23 billion in annual revenues and maybe 35,000 associates. the we we called ourselves Martians, but actually we were called associates rather than employees because the idea
Andy Mason (15:37)
Yeah.
Jay Jakub (15:37)
was that you were all part of almost like a family inside the company was a very different way
Andy Mason (15:41)
Very good.
Jay Jakub (15:42)
of thinking about yourself. And that company has grown just ex in extraordinary ways. So the last time I looked, instead of having 35,000 associates, it has 150 plus thousand.
Jay Jakub (15:53)
Associates. And instead of 22, 23 billion in annual revenues, it's more like 55 billion, maybe even 60 billion now. So the Mars family, I think their their personal wealth I just saw was 129 billion dollars, where I think it was probably a third that when I joined the company. So very, very fast growing and and again entirely family owned and privately held. So it it has a the ability to follow these.
Jay Jakub (16:18)
management principles that everyone in the company, all of these 150 thumb some thousand associates, they know what the five core principles are of of Mars by heart. And when we were in the global headquarters making decisions, we were actually talking about the principles. I never experienced that in another job where you talk about the principles in in your decision
Andy Mason (16:35)
Constantly.
Jay Jakub (16:35)
making. And if if the pr if the principle was being violated in some decision that you were trying to make, then you would have that discussion and and then not do it.
Andy Mason (16:46)
I'm loving this. So at the time an MBA program just tells you profit is the goal. Just it's all about profit. You talk about these five principles and a company that has grown like crazy. And some would say, Yeah, that's just because profit was their core objective. Challenge that. is that true? could you say that Mars has grown just because they had profit as the center and that's why they've grown?
Andy Mason (17:10)
Or could they have made a lot more money but they were doing something else that was more what you would now say is the economics of mutuality?
Jay Jakub (17:18)
Well, the family that that I worked for, that owned the whole company, John Forrest and Jackie Mars were the leaders of the three branches of the company. They came from a generation where where they they lived more frugally. These are some of the wealthiest people in the world, but they lived more frugally and they actually made a decision to forego a large part of their dividend that they would normally take as owners so that that money could be reinvested in the company so that they could do business more in the in the right way, take a longer term.
Jay Jakub (17:45)
perspective and what they were doing, that they could fund something like an internal think tank to challenge orthodox business thinking, in ways that were unpredictable. And so there were some very good things about that. Now, I don't want to speak about the company as a monolith, because every company has has leaders that that are that are pioneers that want to try the new things. There are those that are fast followers and then are those that just want to stand on the sidelines. So not everybody has sort of indulged in these practices in the same way and at the same pace and scope.
Jay Jakub (18:14)
But just to have the freedom to to work on something like this economics mutuality that I know you want to dive into in a little more detail in a moment was just an extraordinary privilege privilege to be involved in a in a company that was willing to invest that amount of money. And in fact, when we spun out our internal think tank with the permission of the Mars family and the and the management leadership team in 2020, the I was asked actually to to figure out how much the company had actually invested.
Jay Jakub (18:41)
just in this economics mutuality initiative before we moved out. And it was something north of $60 million to to invest in a in a new business model that ultimately was about mutual value creation and it was about delivering purpose in business and decentering the maximization of profit as your be all end all sort of lens for for populating your whole ecosystem of stakeholders that you have to collaborate with. So it was really very innovative, but it was more a re rediscovery of a biblical truth.
Jay Jakub (19:11)
in all honesty than it was an innovation.
Andy Mason (19:14)
Yeah. So before we get into the biblical truth and economics of mutuality, I'd just like to emphatically state, from my perspective, chocolate is just making the world better. that
Jay Jakub (19:23)
Yeah.
Andy Mason (19:24)
surely's gotta be the outcome of this. But for the for the for the listener that's saying they've got fifteen to twenty-five employees in a small to medium company, what does the economics of mutuality mean? If you can explain it to someone, they just grasp that straight away.
Jay Jakub (19:40)
Sure. Well, business is about value creation more than anything else. And what we're doing with this economics and mutuality approach to business is actually something we call mutual value creation. So it's not about value extraction. And if you think about the way companies are organized, they they typically all all believe that they're at the center of their ecosystem of of stakeholders that they need to collaborate with to do whatever business is they're doing, and that profit is at the center of the center.
Jay Jakub (20:08)
And so money is basically the lens through which you decide who your stakeholders are. And that means no matter what kind of industry that you're in, what kind of business you're in, what size of business you're in, you typically have pretty much the same set of stakeholders from whom you're trying to extract as much value as possible, leave as little as you can for your stakeholders, and keep as much as possible for your shareholders. And the purpose of the business is usually described as the values that you stand for.
Jay Jakub (20:35)
not easy to actually put into practice or it describes the kind of thing that you're that you're doing. C.S. Lewis said something 120 some years ago when he was a professor at Oxford. He said something about purpose that I thought was remarkable. He said purpose is like a light and you don't turn on a light in a dark room to then stare at the light. And most companies are thinking about purpose as trying to get the consumer to look at their values and identify them with them, not to actually put purpose into practice through strategy.
Jay Jakub (21:03)
And so I think
Andy Mason (21:03)
Yeah, so
Jay Jakub (21:04)
I think CS Lewis really really nailed that. So if you think about purpose, the purpose of business, unlike that which is described by most CEOs that you engage, it's not profit. It's not about making profit. That's not the purpose of the company. And that's not devaluing profit. Profit is really important, but profit is like the gasoline that you put into the engine of the car. It's not the engine of the car, it's not the car itself. So it can't be a
Jay Jakub (21:29)
A purpose profit, but it's critically important. So the purpose of business is not about creating profit. The purpose of business is about creating profitable solutions to the problems of people, place, and planet, not by profiting, by creating problems for people, place, and planet. So when you decenter the company itself and its profit making, profit maximization from the center of its ecosystem of stakeholders, and you actually center a purpose. So what is the company or the business unit of a company? Why was it created?
Jay Jakub (21:59)
To solve what external problem for for individuals, for society, for nature, whatever it may be. Once you frame the purpose as solving an external problem, it creates a dynamic, dynamic new situation where instead of just extracting value from your ecosystem of stakeholders, you're actually reversing that and you're looking at breakdowns in your ecosystem. You're framing your ecosystem with stakeholders that you actually need to work with to help you.
Jay Jakub (22:27)
Deliver that purpose that you say your company is there to create. This economics and mutuality model helps you map out, frame the purpose and help map out who the stakeholders would be, what the problems the stakeholders are actually encountering in their own lives, things that companies typically ignore if they're just thinking about straight point-to-point return on investment. And when you start to identify these breakdowns in the ecosystem, maybe one, two, three at the most breakdowns.
Jay Jakub (22:54)
through which a the company itself could actually create some low-cost interventions to help alleviate that problem for a stakeholder, like helping your neighbors in a neighborhood instead of just extracting value from them. Then what happens, we find, is that the ecosystem starts to become healed and it starts to just superperform. And when it starts to overperform as an ecosystem and helping the company deliver its purpose, then what you start to see is that measurable impact.
Jay Jakub (23:21)
that benefits individuals, community, society at large, the environment, whatever it may be, that these things are actually happening at a higher rate in a measurable way, and they're also delivering more growth and earnings. You're
Andy Mason (23:34)
So what's the best example that you can share with us that you've seen this in play?
Jay Jakub (23:40)
I'm so glad you asked me that because this is something that that when you're working with a model that that creates mutual value indirectly through this ecosystem orchestration around purpose approach, it's really difficult to actually pin down exactly how much return on investment a company makes for an investment in an economics and mutuality initiative.
Andy Mason (23:58)
Yeah, how do you ma how do you measure these things that are intangible? Yeah.
Jay Jakub (24:02)
Well, a member of the of the Mars family, who also happens to be the chairman of the board of the Economics and Mutuality Foundation, because he believes so much.
Jay Jakub (24:09)
in this. And the CFO, the chief financial officer of Mars, they decided after a number of years and all this investment and what it was we were doing that they really wanted to have a very tangible example and they were willing to to put the resources of the company and the business unit that we did work for to at our disposal to do whatever it was that was necessary to prove exactly what the return on investment was for an initiative.
Andy Mason (24:30)
Good. Good.
Jay Jakub (24:32)
And so we developed a a case study that actually shocked us.
Jay Jakub (24:35)
It shocked them as well, but it even shocked us because of how performant this model proved to be when you're creating wins for everyone in the value chain rather than just extracting value. And this was a company called Royal Canin. And Royal Canin is a pet food company and it's nutraceutical and it's very, very high quality. It's also very expensive. So if you were a European and you were you had a dog or a cat and you wanted to have this nutraceutical pet food to help prevent kidney disease or whatever it may be.
Jay Jakub (25:03)
it would cost maybe a hundred euros for a bag of this Royal Canon pet food. So it's not for everyone. And this company was kind of unique because ever since it was acquired by Mars, the company was constantly delivering double-digit growth, always,
Andy Mason (25:16)
wow.
Jay Jakub (25:17)
every quarter, and outperforming every other unit, business unit of Mars. And it also did that through COVID, which was remarkable. So it was very, very successful. And yet it wanted to be better and it wanted to codify
Jay Jakub (25:30)
This unusual way of working where they didn't even spend money on advertising. Okay. So they believed in kind of word of mouth because the product was so good for the pets that people would recommend it. And so this company started working with us because they really believed in the economics of mutuality. So we did many projects with them in many different ways around the world. But this one is the one that I'm going to isolate for you to answer your question. So very quickly, the first thing we did with the company is we we helped Royal Canin reframe its purpose.
Jay Jakub (25:58)
So instead of just selling more Royal Canon pet food to make more money, what what we were fit what we framed it to with their their support was to improve the health of all cats and dogs. So that was their purpose. We put that at the center of of their ecosystem. Suddenly that purpose became the right lens through which to populate and map out on an interactive map who the right stakeholders were. So suddenly you're thinking about the breeders of pets, the veterinarians, the pet owners themselves. These are all
Jay Jakub (26:25)
stakeholders that you have to think about if improving the health of all cats and dogs is what you really want to do as the purpose of your business. And then we did something called mobile ethnography to go out and interview in a very objective way all these stakeholders, identify what their pain points are. So where were some of the breakdowns in their businesses? And then what were the breakdowns that maybe the company could create an intervention to solve? And we hit on one right away that was quite extraordinary. We discovered that in the in the
Jay Jakub (26:54)
The ecosystem of of Royal Canin that they were relying on Banfield veterinary clinics, also owned by Mars, the largest chain of veterinary clinics to treat cats and dogs, to help promote their products, to help provide the advice to the pet owners. And the veterinary nurses were the ones that were doing that as they were engaging pet owners with sick dogs and cats. And
Andy Mason (27:13)
Right.
Jay Jakub (27:14)
these veterinary nurses apparently were attriting at an unbelievably and unsustainable high level. And as we probed this with our approach.
Jay Jakub (27:21)
We discovered it was because they weren't trained properly. So they were quitting in very high numbers. This was disrupting the whole Banfield business, and it was also acting as a big damper on the Royal Canon sales and revenue generation. So we created an intervention that cost the company $250,000. It's an eight billion dollar business unit. So that was a small in investment to train.
Andy Mason (27:39)
Okay, yeah, relative, yeah.
Jay Jakub (27:41)
Yeah, to train something like 1200 veterinary nurses, all the veterinary nurses into all the Banfield clinics to train them better. And then quickly after the training, we looked, we started looking at.
Jay Jakub (27:50)
what happened to the ecosystem. The first thing we noticed was that that the attrition rate dropped almost immediately by almost 40%. It was quite remarkable. And the well-being turnover of the veterinary nurses. Now,
Andy Mason (27:59)
So turnover of nurses. Yeah.
Jay Jakub (28:04)
once the turnover of the veterinary nurses stopped, then suddenly the clinics started to perform better because the veterinarians
Andy Mason (28:09)
Yeah.
Jay Jakub (28:09)
didn't have to do double jobs. They could start being real veterinarians again. So the clinic started performing better. The the pet owners started to grow what we call social capital, which is about trust.
Jay Jakub (28:19)
That you can actually measure. And they started having much more trust in what the veterinary nurses were telling them. And one of the things they were telling them was, if you don't want to have the illness that you're bringing your cat, your dog or cat in for, feed them this brand of Royal Canon. Well, to take that further, we then came to growth and earnings. And we discovered on the earnings side that this $250,000 intervention alone accounted for $4.2 million in new sales revenue for Royal Canin. And then on the
Andy Mason (28:45)
Of new
Jay Jakub (28:46)
top, right, on the top line of your
Jay Jakub (28:48)
What's called the PL, the profit and loss statement, on your growth side, there was a $14.2 million benefit to the company and to Banfield. So all owned by Mars, as a result of of lots of different factors, including this attrition rate now being arrested, not having to go out and advertise and train new people, all these kinds of things. So you add those numbers together and you look at the the $250,000 investment, it was a 17x return on investment. So
Jay Jakub (29:16)
That was not something that that the company took lightly and they were stunned and so were we. Now I'm not saying that this approach will always deliver this kind of growth and earnings, but you know, when we first started this work, Andy, you know 15, 20 years ago now, the only place we were allowed to work by Mars was in the slums around Nairobi, Kenya, places where there was no ability to deal with that demographic. How do you get product through a route to market in there?
Jay Jakub (29:41)
And even that business, which was a social business where we first started this work, it delivered two times the retained earnings of the name business that had all the all the advantages that that we didn't have. So this thing works. And the more, the more markets we take it to, the more other companies we take it to in different industries, the more we see that it actually helps companies deliver their purpose in ways that eliminate, if not reduce dramatically, if not eliminate, the trade-off between profit and doing good.
Jay Jakub (30:10)
That you can actually
Andy Mason (30:10)
Yeah.
Jay Jakub (30:11)
have both.
Andy Mason (30:12)
Yeah. And I love this. I mean, personally, I was just talking to someone today, and I, for us, even with heaven and business, you'd think it's kind of obvious. But the realization, Second Corinthians five, it talks about being c controlled and compelled by Christ or by love. And it everything, whatever I'm compelled by, will determine what I look at. Like you said, it's the center, it's the core driving principle.
Jay Jakub (30:36)
Okay.
Andy Mason (30:36)
And I realize I've been compelled by vision, I could be compelled by faith, I could be compelled by kingdom, I can be compelled by results. And whatever I do will determine whether I want to sit down and meet with you or not and what your value is. Because are you going to help feed this internal core driver? And what you're saying is, no, if I flip it and make, in this case, Christ the center, love the center, I'm no longer looking at just what that is.
Andy Mason (31:04)
But I can have a wider perspective. And you s in your situation, you would have never noticed. I'm going to sit down. The issue really is my stakeholder out here, who's the stakeholders, is someone that I wasn't even thinking about. It's an aligned business that's actually selling our product and it's the nurse's retention. And you set up a program that seemingly is way outside your stakeholders from an old perspective, but it changes
Jay Jakub (31:30)
Mm-hmm.
Andy Mason (31:31)
everything.
Jay Jakub (31:32)
It does. And we were driven by scripture. even though I should say as a disclaimer that the that the Mars Incorporated is a secular company, it's not a faith-based company. And to to take this work into the secular marketplace, we had to develop a secular language. The leaders of the internal think tank that came up with this, we we happen to be believers, but we have people on the team that are not. We feel everyone is going to be blessed by this kind of work.
Andy Mason (31:55)
Because
Andy Mason (31:55)
of it.
Jay Jakub (31:55)
But
Jay Jakub (31:55)
it started with the chief economist's vision when he was a young man that Leviticus chapter twenty-five in the Old Testament. Okay, this is not the first place that I would look for a living, breathing kingdom business model, but that's where we found it in Leviticus 25, which is about God's Jubilee and his kingdom economy and how it's meant to operate in terms of remunerating land,
Andy Mason (32:13)
Everything.
Jay Jakub (32:14)
labor, and capital along different time horizons. And so I like to call this Jubilee economics when I'm speaking with believers, economics of mutuality, when I'm speaking, in a secular.
Jay Jakub (32:22)
way. And I remember when we first started this work, we started as an internal think tank to look at all the management literature of the 50 years, literally 50 years, one Jubilee cycle exactly, of financial capitalism. It was introduced by Milton Friedman in 1970. And here it was, you know, 50 years later that we were working on this. And we didn't find anything about this question that kind of caused us to start working on this, which is what's the right level of profit for the company.
Jay Jakub (32:50)
We couldn't find it anywhere. And we thought, okay, is this a new question that's being asked? And then we discovered something in Proverbs, Proverbs eleven, where the wise King Solomon said, one may give freely and still wealth will be increased, and another may keep back more than is right
Andy Mason (33:03)
scared us.
Jay Jakub (33:04)
and comes to be in need. And we thought, aha, this is not a new innovation we need, it's a rediscovery of an old truth.
Andy Mason (33:11)
I love that. It's a rediscovery of an old truth. So let's circle back around to the topic. For those that want to dive deeper into this, you've got a book. It's called Completing Capitalism. Give us the blurb of that.
Jay Jakub (33:24)
Yeah. And I'll say first that completing capitalism is the first part of the title, but equally important is heal business to heal the world, because ultimately this isn't just a clever way to help companies in a new economic context of the global economy to make more money.
Andy Mason (33:37)
Yeah, make more money. Yes.
Jay Jakub (33:39)
It just happens to be the outcome when you're faithful in the small things, when you're actually looking after your neighbors in a neighborhood of ecosystem stakeholders gathered together around doing good, about around delivering a purpose to society, the environment.
Jay Jakub (33:54)
Community, whatever it may be. So that's an important thing to remember. Also, you know, financial capitalism started in 1970 because it was a reaction that an economist, Milton Friedman, had to a condition in the global economy, which was the nature of scarcity. There just wasn't enough money in the global economy in 1970. There was plenty of natural resources and everything else, but not money. So he creates this model, 1.0 financial capitalism.
Jay Jakub (34:20)
That creates massive amounts of money. So he solved that problem. But unfortunately, now the forms of scarcity have changed. And so trust, like social capital, is what we call that, well-being in the workplace, which is human capital, another
Andy Mason (34:33)
Yeah.
Jay Jakub (34:33)
another form of capital, and natural resources, natural capital. These are the things that are now in scarcity. And yet the model keeps driving the world more and more into dysfunction of more and more financial capital that's now not underpinned by anything of value. So why wouldn't you think about
Jay Jakub (34:49)
Wanting a more complete form of capitalism instead of a 1.0 financial capitalism model, where in business you only manage what you measure, right? So in financial capitalism, you only have financial metrics. Why wouldn't you want to expand that into a 4.0 version that takes account of measuring, managing, and mobilizing social, human, natural, and financial capital? Because there's so much inherent value that's in social, human, and natural capital that companies don't have access to because they don't know how to measure, manage, and mobilize them.
Jay Jakub (35:18)
This approach uses those four forms of capital as the building blocks for the model. And that's what enables companies actually to really provide mutual value to its stakeholders rather than just financial value to its shareholders.
Andy Mason (35:34)
Yeah, so if you're listening to this and you're like, what on earth is Jay talking about? You
Jay Jakub (35:38)
I think.
Andy Mason (35:39)
can get the book. It's called Completing Capital by Capitalism by Jay Jacob. Healing business, healing a healing business, healing what?
Jay Jakub (35:48)
Heal business to heal the world. And then we also published
Andy Mason (35:49)
Here.
Jay Jakub (35:50)
a we also published a book by Oxford University Press in 2021 that's called Putting Purpose into Practice: The Economics of Mutuality. And this is a chapter book where I contributed one chapter and there were about 30 contributors to it. But it's really a how-to book. You know, how do you do this specifically with lots of case studies and chapters on how you measure things and how you build an ecosystem and how you orchestrate it? And we actually have a free copy of that book.
Jay Jakub (36:16)
that's online, that's a PDF version that's downloadable. that you can get on the EOM dot org website if you want to go in there and not dot or
Andy Mason (36:23)
E-O-M E-O-M.org.
Andy Mason (36:27)
That's economics of mutuality, but E-O-M.org. We'll post that link below. This
Jay Jakub (36:32)
Yes, sir.
Andy Mason (36:32)
is great for those that are listening again. What can you do? If you feel overwhelmed, just pause, sit before the Lord, and say, God, who are your stakeholders? What are you doing in this? And is there anyone that I'm not treating with honor? And it's from every aspect of your
Andy Mason (36:50)
the stakeholders, the people involved in your business, from the suppliers to the consumers to the developers to that front desk person that you ignore, to the cleaner, to to the people that you have at home, the whole process. I love that. Jay, we've been talking about economics mutuality for a bunch, but really we started off knowing and following your assignment. And you, you start off seeking intelligence. If I know enough, then I have the answers, then I'll be
Andy Mason (37:20)
Secure, then I'll be comfortable. You go through this journey, you cover more and more of encounter more and more of God in the process. you step into economics of mutuality. God's using the same brain and the intelligence and all of these different things that move together. And then you've stepped into that for what about 20 years? You're doing economics of
Jay Jakub (37:40)
Twenty year this was the
Jay Jakub (37:41)
twentieth twentieth anniversary is this this year, yes. Thank you.
Andy Mason (37:43)
Can con congratulations. And it and many
Andy Mason (37:46)
would say you're at the the peak of what you know. Now you know this stuff, you can communicate it. You're really smart at what you do. You can do whatever you want to do. And you choose to step down from and leading that initiative. Tell me
Jay Jakub (38:00)
Well all
Jay Jakub (38:00)
initiatives all initiatives and all organizations evolve and this was the right moment. But your question, I'm sorry, I did it.
Andy Mason (38:05)
Well how so how do you know? So
Andy Mason (38:06)
someone listening right now, they're they're leading a company, they're leading a family, leading a business, leading a church, leading a sports team. Most people leave it till too late. How did you know it was the right time to step aside to change what your role was?
Jay Jakub (38:23)
Hmm. Well, over the last 18 months or so, my role, which had been pretty static, even while I was inside the internal think tank of the company, and then outside when I was leading the the foundation, the Economics and Mutuality Foundation, that owned the IP and a consultancy that was delivering the work to companies called Mutual Value Labs, it had always been really about advocacy to build economics and mutuality into a global movement and also leveraging the the real case studies, which also are available on the on the website, by the way, in an archive there.
Jay Jakub (38:53)
case studies numerous businesses and how this how this actually works. But taking those real case studies, building the right academic partnerships, setting up centers of excellence at some leading business schools, and then helping to build the the curriculum around this so that it can be taught in business schools and not just disappear as a fad after after a decade. That role had had had changed pretty dramatically because the the part of the company that's that's leading the the deployment of economics and mutuality in these businesses decided to make a strategic shift
Jay Jakub (39:22)
And to start to apply this approach, not to businesses specifically, but actually to catalyze something called place-based transformation. So take it into communities, into regions, and try to create the conditions by which flourishing in those communities and regions could happen. And during that shift, the foundation was no not going to be a recipient of funding from the the consultancy to help it.
Jay Jakub (39:48)
fund its its nonprofit activities and advocacy and and leadership and education, it was turned into something that was meant to raise funds. And so I suddenly went from, you know, being the being the the lead advocate advocate for what we were doing and partnering with business schools to to being the lead fundraiser, which is something that somebody's probably
Andy Mason (40:07)
It's different Rome.
Jay Jakub (40:08)
probably better suited for than than me and maybe called to. I didn't feel really like it was part of my calling and and the the the business needed some new thinking in that space.
Andy Mason (40:18)
So things changed. No organization stays the same. If it is, be aware there's probably something's changed. And and you noticed this, you recognized it, and you said it's just not within my calling to be the primary fundraiser. It's not good or bad. How do you know what your calling is and what are you stepping into?
Jay Jakub (40:37)
Yeah, and again, over these last 18 months, where it was becoming increasingly uncomfortable, and I didn't feel like I was contributing what I should be contributing at this stage in the organization. The Lord was opening a lot of other doors. Healing prayer ministry is a big part of my my faith journey and my wife's as well. And so we created something years ago called the Christian Healing Institute. And I was finding that it was it was a wonderful vehicle by which while I was traveling around the world for business on my own time.
Jay Jakub (41:03)
the Lord was opening doors with churches of all denominations and and bringing me into contact with their congregations and giving me the opportunity actually to help them better understand biblically based healing prayer ministry right out of the out of the New Testament. And my wife was undergoing the first of of six forms of unrelated cancer during the course of this 20-year journey. And we were receiving just incredible healing in ourselves as we were we were learning more about healing ministry. So
Jay Jakub (41:31)
That was part of it. Also, the Lord was opening doors to the nations for this work. And as the as the economics mutuality entity was becoming more focused in a in a narrow way on some very specific geographies for proof of concept for this place-based transformation, the Lord was opening doors to go to places like Macedonia, for example, where a
Andy Mason (41:52)
Wow.
Jay Jakub (41:52)
a ministry paid for my my visit to to go and brief the the president of a country.
Jay Jakub (41:58)
on this topic. So it was the first time we had an opportunity to speak at a national level about what it was we were doing and just brainstorm, is economics and mutuality is Jubilee economics something that could actually be deployed at a national level. I'm talking to people about Venezuela and how that can be done. People have engaged me about Iran, depending on how the war ends out and what kind of regime is is left in place. People that are looking at the Koreas and what could happen with with this Jubilee economics approach. So I mean even Colombia
Jay Jakub (42:25)
I was hosted by by a family office to talk to a hundred family offices that that control most of Columbia's economy in April. These are things that I I had to do almost on my own time because but those were doors I felt like the Lord was opening up, at least for me, for me personally. And that was an evolution of my of my journey and carrying me into the next season. So it was the right decision for the for the organization, for me to step down and it was the right decision for for the next.
Jay Jakub (42:52)
the next part of my season I think in my vocation to step down as well. But I still advi
Andy Mason (42:56)
Yeah, so
Jay Jakub (42:56)
I still advise the the board,
Andy Mason (42:58)
Yeah.
Jay Jakub (43:00)
so I'm not completely aw away from them, yes.
Andy Mason (43:03)
So in knowing your assignment, there's it's it changes over time. start, I I love this. You said start on your knees. start
Jay Jakub (43:10)
Like it's
Andy Mason (43:10)
on your knees, stay on your knees in terms of your heart posture that will keep you leaning in and listening. And in your case, like check your heart. Do I have an idol of profit? Do I have an idol of intellect, of influence? So many different ways will lead you down different directions. God will redeem everything. But
Andy Mason (43:28)
If I start on my knees and stay on my knees and listen, then he'll shape that. you stepped into a season now where you get to do this. I love this. From you know, from intelligence to mutuality to healing to nations. I mean, I'm loving this journey that you've got and you've done it with your wife, with kids in the process. There's so much more we could talk about. But if I just said wrapping up right now, Jay, for for a bunch of business people now that are
Andy Mason (43:55)
Pondering where do I aim my life? From I want to build a kingdom-centered business. Seek first the kingdom of God, the only thing that truly lasts. What counsel, what parting advice would you give our listeners?
Jay Jakub (44:14)
Well, I think when you're managing a business, when you're following your vocation, if that's what you want to do, the first thing you need to be mindful of is the fact that that God leads and Satan pushes. So if you feel pushed rather than led, then that's a clue, maybe that that Satan is taking you in a direction that you don't want to go. the w one of the ways that I that I describe this is the fact that you know, God opens doors.
Jay Jakub (44:39)
for you to fulfill more and more of your your vocation, which is so much bigger than you could ever imagine. Satan also opens doors because he's trying to make you so busy that you can't listen to him. You can't wait on him. You can't follow his leading. You operate in fear, you operate in anxiety. You know, when I was when when I was a younger man and my my daughter was only six years old, she's now 25, was in a Sunday school class.
Jay Jakub (45:05)
I'll never forget a moment that changed my life actually in my perspective. She came out of Sunday school class and I just innocently went over and said, what did you learn in Sunday school today? And she said, Daddy, I learned a new word. I said, What is it? She said, busy. I said, what does it mean? And she said, she just looked me in the eye and she said, B-U-S-Y, being under Satan's yoke. And this just
Jay Jakub (45:26)
cut me to the core. And there's not a there's not a week that goes by, Andy, in all those years that I don't think about that.
Jay Jakub (45:33)
And there's not a conference that I don't keynote, that I don't mention that to people. So being under Satan's yoke, if we are fearful, if we're anxious, if we're too busy to to to follow God's leading, it's probably not of God that we're that we're listening to. And then taking risks. you know, we God wants us to step out of the boat. and one of the things that I that I apply to this work is the understanding that this isn't about prophet, this is about healing, healing the broken relationships between.
Jay Jakub (46:02)
business and people between business and and and community between business and the and the planet. So that whenever I start talking too much about profit maximum profit and and how much money you can make with this approach, I get I get a little nudge, sometimes a big nudge from the Holy Spirit to refocus on the healing aspect of what's going on. And you know think think about why have I waited so long and suspend your disbelief as a business leader that that if you want to do good
Jay Jakub (46:30)
That it has to be altruistic or philanthropic. Actually,
Andy Mason (46:32)
Yeah.
Jay Jakub (46:33)
you can do good and do well from a performance perspective if you put purpose in place of your profit maximization. And if you're not chasing the money, the money tends to chase you and you wind up
Andy Mason (46:42)
Yeah.
Jay Jakub (46:43)
getting a double blessing. Just before I got on this call, I felt like I hadn't read the Bible this morning. I'll just conclude with this. And and I was like, Well, I I really want to think about what Andy's gonna ask me. And the Lord was saying, just open the Bible, okay? And I opened the Bible and it what was it, Second Chronicles.
Jay Jakub (46:58)
Second Chronicles 1. And what did it say? It talked about King Solomon when he was becoming king. he went off alone with God and God asked him, What what can I give you? And instead of asking for money for wealth for riches for the defeat of his enemies, he asked for wisdom and discernment to lead,
Andy Mason (47:14)
Yeah.
Jay Jakub (47:15)
right? And so God said, Okay, I'm gonna give you wisdom and discernment, and I'm also gonna bless you with with riches as well. And this is just another reminder of that when we're faithful in the small things, when we focus on the means.
Jay Jakub (47:27)
Then God takes care of the ends.
Andy Mason (47:29)
So I I so appreciate that. before we jump off, I'm gonna get Jay to pray. but for you listening, there's so much we've covered. You can jump in the blog, I'm gonna summarize this and and try to, but for you, just pause. I love that. Being under Satan's joke, I don't have the time to, I'm too busy to no. Pause, be still, Holy Spirit. What what is one thing that I could take from this?
Andy Mason (47:55)
Story, this life, this case study that I've heard that I need to apply or need to learn more about. So pause and then action that. And then secondly, I invite you to join us having a business conference in Nashville coming up early March next year. We expect that to fill up. So jump in and grab your ticket there. And now, Jay, would you just pray?
Andy Mason (48:23)
And release that grace that you have on every listener.
Jay Jakub (48:29)
Thank you, Andy. And I really do admire your work and thank you for all you do. So, Lord Jesus, I just lift up Andy and I lift up everyone who's listening now, especially those who have an anointing to be a leader in in the marketplace, in in business, Lord Jesus. I just pray for more of a release of anointing on their lives. I pray that that that any fear or anxiety that they have of
Jay Jakub (48:51)
Of stepping out of the boat and and taking a risk and taking the time to wait on the Lord and to suspend their disbelief that to do their their fiduciary responsibilities, that they have to maximize their shareholder return. And that means even compromising on the means to get to the ends. I just pray, Lord, that they that they have a revelation and that all of you just can see beyond that and can just start to trust in the Lord, that the Lord knows how to reverse.
Jay Jakub (49:21)
this falsehood that that Satan has managed to convince so many of, which is that if you want to have for yourself, you need to take from others and you need to keep it. And when in actual fact it's about co-creating value. And just let your businesses become more like bees that are pollinating a field and not behaving like locusts that are just devouring Lord. So I just pray, Lord, that that image of bees and locusts is clear to everyone as they step out of the boat and they start stepping more into their journey.
Jay Jakub (49:51)
And I pray that all of us will be able to break the chains of busyness on our lives. We don't want to be under Satan's yoke. We only want to be on the yoke of Jesus Christ. And thank you again for this opportunity to share this message with you in Jesus' name.
Andy Mason (50:04)
Amen. So those books that Jay recommended, you can find those. Economics of Mutuality website, E-O-M.org. Thank you so much, Jay.
Jay Jakub (50:15)
Thank you, Andy. Be blessed.
